Following intense, sometimes violent protests on campuses, colleges and universities are taking steps to encourage better and more civil dialogue and debate among students who disagree.

Some schools are offering new guidance and coursework around how students should speak to one another in an effort to bridge deep differences. At the same time, they’re tightening restrictions on campus protests related to the war in Gaza, and cracking down on protest tactics with heightened enforcement.

We explore the new approaches and talk with experts about the efforts to help students speak across their differences. 

Scroll to the end of this transcript to find out more about these topics.

Listen to the whole series

TRANSCRIPT

(Sound of campus protest)

Kirk: After a year of intense and sometimes violent protest on college campuses … this fall’s orientation sounds different.

Orientation video: Colleges and universities tend to bring together people of different backgrounds, faiths and opinions. …

Kirk: Listen to this freshman orientation video some schools are using now, Jon.

Orientation video: Though it may not seem like it at first, making an effort to talk and listen to those who you disagree with can have a lasting impact on your campus culture.

Kirk: The video is produced by the Foundation for Individual Rights and Expression, which describes itself as a nonpartisan group that defends student and faculty free speech. It’s called “Talking Across Differences.”

Orientation video: We limit ourselves when we only engage with similar worldviews. In this setting, we become less curious, more hostile to perceived differences and less reflective.

Jon: This is where we are, Kirk. The political and social climate on some campuses has gotten so bad that colleges have to teach their students how to have a conversation.

Kirk: From the University of California to the University of Wisconsin, Rutgers to Harvard, colleges are amplifying or tightening their free speech and protest policies. The stated goal is to manage campus demonstrations, especially in light of the recent unrest over the Israel-Hamas conflict.

So some administrators and nonprofits say they’re stepping in to help improve civil discourse.

We’re going to dive into what’s really going on and then explain what it means for you.

Music:

Kirk: This is College Uncovered from GBH News and The Hechinger Report, a podcast pulling back the ivy to reveal how colleges really work, and why it matters.

I’m Kirk Carapezza from GBH News. …

Jon: … and I’m Jon Marcus with The Hechinger Report.

Today on the show: “The politics of protests.”

The divide on college campuses surrounding the war in Gaza runs deep. It’s changing the college experience for many students, starting with new guidance on student protests and how those rules are communicated and enforced.

Kirk: Yeah. Both the University of California and Cal State systems are cracking down on encampments and unauthorized structures on their campuses. Cal State’s new public assembly policy prohibits things like barriers, tents and even masks that conceal protesters’ identities. The University of California has issued similar directives urging campus leaders to reinforce existing bans on encampments and mass demonstrators.

Jon: These changes come after a rocky spring semester, when protests tied to the Israel-Hamas conflict swept across campuses.

Sound of campus protest:

Jon: And, Kirk, there could be financial consequences. California lawmakers say they’ll hold back $25 million in state funding for the University of California until it sets up a policy for free speech and protest.

Kirk: Rutgers and Columbia have unveiled their own new policies limiting access to campus to those with school IDs.

Jon: And over at Penn, administrators are limiting microphones, speakers and megaphones and banning chalk pictures or slogans on the walls and sidewalks.

Kirk: These schools say they’re aiming to balance the right to protest with the rights of other students looking to get an education or use a public space. But the new rules raise even more questions.

How will these policies be enforced, especially the bans on masks and encampments? And what does all this mean for student activism, which has long been a part of campus life? If you’re a student or a parent, it can be confusing. So we called up an expert to learn more and to provide some historical perspective.

Robert Cohen: My name is Robert Cohen. I’m a historian. I teach history and social studies at New York University.

Kirk: Cohen says student activism has always been controversial and unpopular with the public.

Robert Cohen: And that means that universities are under pressure to suppress student activism. You’d be surprised with the number of movements that have happened and also the fact that the public disapproved of them — when it was the sit-in movement against racial discrimination in lunch counters. The Freedom Rides, the free-speech movement, the antiwar movement of the ‘60s were all underwater. Politically, they were unpopular.

News commentator: They said they were there to protest the war, poverty, racism and other social ills. Some of them were also determined to provoke a confrontation.

Robert Cohen: And so there was pressure for various reasons to suppress them, as was true last semester.

Kirk: Yeah. In the spring, more than 3,100 students were arrested between mid April and mid June, and that’s higher than most of the 1960s. So it’s tempting, I think, to compare these nationwide campus protests to the anti-Vietnam War movement. But today’s protests have not been nearly as widespread or as violent.

Robert Cohen: That’s one of the reasons why I was so upset about all the arrest, because there’s so little provocation for it. In fact, that’s why the majority of the charges were dropped, because they didn’t really, you know, it wasn’t brazen lawlessness and certainly almost no violence. The largest student protests in American history were in May of 1970, following the Cambodian invasion and the tragic shootings of student protesters at Kent State and Jackson State. The number of students involved in protests there was almost half the student population in the United States — in the millions

Jon: Last semester, the total was in the thousands, not the millions. A new survey finds that two thirds of students say the protests didn’t have any effect at all on their educations. Yet many colleges spent the summer preparing and bracing for more protests. And they’re trying to keep what happened in the spring from escalating.

Kirk: One idea picking up steam is to promote civic dialog in and out of the classroom. Emerson College in Boston, where more than 100 activists were arrested, has launched Emerson together. The new initiative, administrators say, is aimed at creating unity on campus.

Jon: Hamilton College in New York started a program called “Civil Discourse in Local Politics “as part of its freshman orientation, connecting students with local politicians.

Kirk: In New Hampshire. Dartmouth has started “The Dialog Project” to prepare incoming students for tough conversations. And Ohio Wesleyan University is one of the first colleges to provide civil discourse training for all students, faculty and staff.

Is this really what it’s come to? Civil discourse training?

Raj Vannakota: You can’t make assumptions about where students and faculty and administrators are.

Kirk: That’s Raj Vannakota. He leads a program called College Presidents for Civic Preparedness to help those students, faculty and administrators.

Raj Vannakota: Some of them are well on their way, right? They understand this. They do this. They’ve had tons of experience. Others haven’t. And so you have to start with the basic building blocks.

Kirk: Especially for a generation of students that lived through the isolation of Covid-19 and has never seen a national government that wasn’t deeply divided.

Vannakota says these initiatives share a simple goal to promote healthy debate.

Raj Vannakota: We need to take an affirmative posture to ensure that there is free inquiry and debate on our campuses. And I want to make clear here, we’re using the term free inquiry rather than free expression. And the reason that we’re doing that is that free expression is, you know, saying whatever the heck you want. The First Amendment has rules around that. But students really need to experience university life not as this disorienting free for all, but a forum for structured dialog and debate and learning. And that is what needs to be at the center of this. So there’s still work to be done to get there.

Kirk: Jonathan Rauch, a fellow at the Brookings Institution, agrees that students need to learn how to be uncomfortable with some of what they hear. Rauch is author of the book ‘The Constitution of Knowledge: A Defense of Truth.’ And he says what’s needed on campus today is a genuine culture of free speech.

Jonathan Rauch: Students should understand from Day One, it should be written on the catalog, that this is a place where you will encounter ideas that will strike you as potentially offensive, potentially harmful. We call that education.

Kirk: Then, Rauch says, students should be encouraged to take up any disagreements with each other or their professors, and not complain to administrators.

Jonathan Rauch: And indeed, they should be taking positions that they themselves don’t disagree with. That’s very good training for life. And it’s also very good training for toleration.

Kirk: But, Jon, professors on campus tell me incorporating debate into the curriculum is much easier said than done because it’s increasingly tough to bring students together for a civil conversation. And as a result, some students are reporting that they feel less safe.

Take Talia Khan, for example. She told me she always felt safe studying engineering as an undergrad at MIT and performing in the university’s jazz band.

Music:

Kirk: Here she is singing the song “Lonely Moments.”

Khan is the daughter of an American Jewish mother and Afghan Muslim father. She told me that after Oct. 7, she feared for her safety.

Talia Khan: We had students immediately saying, you know, all of this violence is Israel’s fault.

Kirk: She disagreed and says she lost friendships and that her mental health suffered. As the campus climate grew more and more polarized.

Talia Khan: I personally had best friends who I had spent a lot of time studying with, and they told me that the people who were killed in the Nova massacre deserved to be killed because they were partying on stolen land. It took me so long to process that anybody could say that. There’s no excuse for, you know, killing, raping, kidnapping innocent people.

Jon: Since the war in Gaza broke out, students like Kahn have found their campuses deeply divided. Many pro-Palestinian and pro-Israeli activists have just stopped talking to each other. Some have even transferred. With both anti-semitism and Islamophobia on the rise. Researchers at the University of Chicago found that more than half of Jewish and Muslim students feel unsafe on campus because of the Israeli-Palestinian conflict.

Robert Pape: Campus fears are more intense and more widespread than we’ve previously known.

Kirk: Robert Pape studies political violence and is the author of the Chicago report.

Robert Pape: Oct. 7 caught us all by surprise, but especially caught college campuses and universities by surprise.

Kirk: Did your survey find that these students have reason to be afraid?

Robert Pape: Yes. They’re hearing protest chants they interpret as a call to genocide. And that’s scaring not just the target group that they hear, but it’s scaring everybody. They’re observing acts of violence and intimidation on campus.

Kirk: Part of the problem, Pape says, is that students sharply disagree even about the meanings of the words they use during protests.

Robert Pape: You have one group of students who are chanting ‘from the river to the sea’ that don’t think it is implying genocide of the Jews. But you’ve got four million college students hearing that phrase thinking that means genocide of the Jews.

Kirk: For many Muslim students like Harvard junior Jana Amin, the harm they experience is very real. That’s because a pro-Israeli group started publicly identifying Harvard students involved in pro-Palestinian causes. The group put a picture of Amin’s face on a truck that drove around just outside of campus and labeled her among Harvard’s leading anti-semites.

Jana Amin: I was devastated and really scared for my own personal safety on campus. Right? Like walking around, might someone recognize me from the truck and then choose to kind of take it a step further and turn to violence?

Kirk: Before Oct. 7, Amin says she felt comfortable on campus. But the doxing truck changed that.

Jana Amin: Just seeing the truck allowed to stay there with my face, that name on it forever altered how I was going to think about my time at Harvard.

Jon: Jewish students who support Israel are also losing trust in their colleges and civil discourse.

Becca Packer: A lot of people are not willing to have a conversation. It’s, you know, their way or the highway.

Jon: As a senior at Berklee College of Music, Becca Packer was a member of the college’s newly organized Hillel, a Jewish campus group. Sitting in the back of a campus café, she says after Oct. 7, she found what she considered anti-semitic posts all over social media.

Becca Packer: One of my first things that I knew I had to do following Oct. 7 was get on Instagram and try and be that opposing voice — that, you know, opposing perspective that people aren’t going to see. Because I knew exactly what was going to happen.

Kirk: The heated environment Packer describes on and offline has real, concrete consequences for the already battered reputation of American colleges.

Jon: Yeah, the protests on campuses in the spring have only deepened the erosion of public trust in colleges and universities. A survey by the research firm SimpsonScarborough finds trust in higher education has taken a big hit, especially among Republican parents.

Kirk: Nearly half of them said the protests made them trust colleges even less.

Jon: Now, Democrats and independents were less opinionated about the demonstrations. But still, 22 percent of Democratic parents and 30 percent of independents said their trust in higher education has declined. This is coming on the heels of public trust in colleges already hitting all-time lows. Confidence in colleges has dropped from around 60 percent to just 40 percent last year.

Kirk: Among the top reasons: concerns about political agendas and professors and administrators pushing what critics call woke culture. No matter your political views, this is a crisis for American higher education, and its leaders are definitely paying attention.

Lynn Pasquerella: We’re at a crucible moment in American higher education, and we must listen to the critics who are concerned. If we don’t, then we will be complicit in our own demise.

Kirk: That’s Lynn Pasquerella, president of the American Association of Colleges and Universities.

If college leaders just kind of scoff at this, the institutions don’t just fail, right? I mean, there’s more at stake than just the colleges themselves.

Lynn Pasquerella: Democracy fails. Students who receive an American education, a liberal education, are much more likely to resist authoritarian tendencies because they are confident in their viewpoints, even when those viewpoints are challenged. They don’t feel threatened by that. We must return to basics, articulate the value of education not only for individuals but for our society.

Jon: That’s why campus leaders are trying to take action, rolling out these new policies and programs and orientation videos. They’re gearing up for more protests, not just about Gaza, but also with tensions rising around the upcoming presidential election.

Kirk: All of this is happening at a time when culture wars are escalating and the country is polarized and partizan.

Jon: This year, colleges are trying to get ahead of this. To start, Pasquerella says, they’re updating their campus speech and protest policies, focusing on when, where and how protests can happen and making sure those rules are consistently enforced.

Lynn Pasquerella: Campus leaders, I think, have learned that they must be transparent and communicate policies widely and frequently. They have to create and sustain a culture in which there’s respect for diversity points.

Music:

Kirk: So now we’re going to explore how and how quickly the politics of campus protests and even classroom discussions have changed — and what that means for you.

I recently sat down with John Tomasi. He’s the president of Heterodox Academy, a nonpartisan advocacy group of academics working to counteract what it sees as a lack of viewpoint diversity on college campuses, especially when it comes to political diversity.

Heterodox doesn’t fully disclose its funding sources, but Tomasi says its members come from across the political spectrum, and his board has directed him not to seek funding from groups that are active in politics.

Tomasi is a former professor at Brown University, where he taught political philosophy and where he met Jonathan Haidt, the founder of Heterodox, or, as they call it, HSA.

How do you explain Heterodox Academy? What is it?

John Tomasi: It started off in the very nerdy kind of techie kind of way. Lots of scientists tended to all have the same political orientation. And famously, in front of a large auditorium of 400 social scientists, John Haidt said, ‘How many of you are Republicans?’ No one raised their hands. ‘How many of you are libertarians?’ One or two kind of hesitantly did. ‘How many of you are Democrats?’ They all raised their hands. Maybe that’s a problem. Maybe we are in a bubble, group thinking. Maybe we’re not achieving that ideal of thinking for ourselves. And so that’s a reason why the social science might not be as robust as it might be. So it began as this techie little group of academics thinking about problems and research, but then it caught a wave of public interest.

I’ll give you one example that really crystallized it for me. There was a speaker invited to Brown. His name is Ray Kelly, former police commissioner of New York City. And Ray Kelly was giving his talk and some students didn’t want him to come. They were worried about stop-and-frisk, which was a policy that he was very well known for, a policy that had very strong racial overtones. And so the students said, please don’t invite Ray Kelly to come to campus. But they invited him anyway. He came to campus and the student shouted him down. That kind of thing had happened before. But what was different now — this was now 2015 — was that the students who shouted him down took responsibility for shouting him down. They gave interviews to the student paper the next day. They said we’d shout him down again. They weren’t afraid of what they had done. They weren’t worried about punishments for what they had done. They had a kind of almost a brazenness, sort of moral commitment, to believing that shouting someone down might be the right thing to do. And so there’s always been these currents on campus that controversial speakers should be protested. You should argue against them. You should do various things to make it difficult for them — banging pots and pans on the way on the way to the lecture hall. But the idea that shouting someone down might be the right thing to do — that was kind of a new creature on the the campus. And that same creature, that same set of ideas started enacting themselves all across the country in different ways.

Kirk: Around the same time, Tomasi recalls, Yale administrators sent an email to students essentially saying, ‘Please be mindful about cultural appropriation when you plan your Halloween costumes and parties.’ Another administrator sent a follow up message saying, ‘Sure, be careful, but it’s Halloween. Don’t be too worried about the details. Don’t walk on eggshells.’

John Tomasi: And students responded really strongly against that claim that they should be able to be transgressive sometimes and not take it too seriously.

Sound of campus protest:

John Tomasi: Something had changed in the temperature on campuses. Something had changed in the way students were thinking of things.

Kirk: Tomasi says political and social divisions have deepened to the point that they’re threatening academic freedom and changing the college experience, with many students afraid to speak up, adopting a new philosophy of silence is safer. A national survey from Heterodox shows that student self-censorship has been rising steadily. It’s up to around 70 percent now. That means 7 in 10 students report that they actively self-censor.

John Tomasi: The students consistently say that the reason they self-censor is not because they’re afraid of their professors grading them down or doing bad things with which they disagree. They self-censor because they’re afraid of social media and they’re afraid of what their fellow students are going to make them famous for an idea that they floated in class and therefore their social lives and personal lives will be ruined forever, perhaps.

Kirk: I heard one speaker say, you know, we’ve got this generation now who went through puberty on social media. They went through the pandemic on Zoom, and now they’re landing on these college campuses and they haven’t ever made eye contact with someone with whom they might disagree. Would you agree with that?

John Tomasi: I think there’s something to that. But I also think it’s really important to recognize that the problems we’re seeing in this generation of students isn’t solely a problem with this generation of students. In fact, the problems we’re seeing, the patterns of behavior that we’re watching on campus now in really vivid form, are very fixed patterns of human behavior. So people get their social cues, they get their ideas, they act the way they act because of the way the people around them are acting, and to a much greater degree than we like to admit.

Jon: We should point out here that organizations like Heterodox Academy and FIRE, which produced that orientation video we heard, are controversial. Critics say these groups don’t speak for them, that they tend to support and defend conservative, provocative speakers on campus.

But Tomasi says his group is growing. More than 50 colleges have established Heterodox communities led by faculty members, including at Harvard and MIT, Berkeley community colleges and large state universities.

Music:

Jon: Heterodox Academy and fire are coming at this from the outside. At the University of Wisconsin, faculty have launched their own new program called The Discussion Project. It’s a training model that’s now catching on at other colleges across the country.

Katherine Cramer: Students are afraid of each other.

Jon: Katherine Cramer teaches political science at Wisconsin.

Katherine Cramer, in class: So welcome, everybody. It’s so great to see so many faces I recognize from years past.

Jon: And since the pandemic, she’s been participating in the program.

Katherine Cramer: They’re afraid to talk about politics, but it’s bigger than that, right? They’re afraid of saying something that will be posted online and go viral and make them feel bad about themselves. They’re afraid of being publicly shamed.

Kirk: Like John Tomasi, Cramer says, the idea that silence is safer is now widespread. Even in her classroom, with the door closed.

How quickly has the college experience changed in this way?

Katherine Cramer: Fast, I think. I mean, the cohort of people that we’re seeing of traditional college age come through colleges now have this scar from the pandemic of not having the experience of like developing the social skills through in-person interaction in that age that they were in, I guess it would have been middle school now, right, for some of the college students. And that, layered on top of this very toxic political environment, I think, has just contributed to this sense that silence is safer. Like, the best approach is to not interact and not say anything.

Jon: As an educator expected to lead freewheeling discussion. Cramer says it’s increasingly hard to get students to talk and have civil conversation if they disagree. Instead, she says, they’re staring at their phones.

Katherine Cramer: Yes, and even to the point where I’ve said, ‘you know, I just want to point out to you all that when you’re done talking about that, like, using the discussion protocol and talking about the course content, you can talk about anything. Anything. I’m not going to like get mad at you for not talking about the course content. You can talk about anything.’ And still, they’re silent.

Jon: As a political scientist, Cramer notes that her students are part of a broader political environment in which Americans are being encouraged by their leaders to be suspicious of each other.

Katherine Cramer: There’s an us and there’s a them, and you don’t want to engage with the other side, because not only are they the other side, they’re evil. And if they get control, if they get a hold of you, the world is coming to an end. Like, that’s the environment we all are in, including these college students.

Jon: So what does The Discussion Project suggest that people do to change this? First, it says that everyone should get a turn leading the discussion.

Katherine Cramer: It makes it like very egalitarian in who’s who gets control and who gets to speak. But also helps us understand how to ask questions about the course content that allows people to bring in who they are as human beings.

Jon: With a presidential election looming. Kramer says figuring out how to hold civil, constructive conversations in a classroom matters far beyond the campus.

Katherine Cramer: You know, it’s a big deal, because what goes on in college is an indicator of what’s going on in other parts of American life. But also because generally we’re talking about young people, and they are the future of this country. And many of these people, for better or for worse, are going to go on and be leaders in our political system. And so, if the skills that they’re developing in college right now are silence is safer, do not engage with people of different opinions or you’re going to be harmed — that doesn’t bode well for the future of our political system.

Kirk: This is College Uncovered, from GBH News and The Hechinger Report. I’m Kirk Carapezza …

Jon: … and I’m Jon Marcus. We’d love to hear from you. Send us an email to GBHNewsConnect@WGBH.org. Or leave us a voicemail at (617) 300-2486. And tell us what you want to know about how colleges really operate. We just might answer your question on the show.

This episode was produced and written by Kirk Carapezza …

Kirk: … and Jon Marcus, and it was edited by Jeff Keating.

Meg Woolhouse is supervising editor.

Ellen London is executive producer.

Production assistance from Diane Adame.

Mixing and sound design by David Goodman and Gary Mott.

Theme song and original music by Left Roman out of MIT.

Mei He is our project manager, and head of GBH podcasts is Devin Maverick Robins.

College Uncovered is a production of GBH News and The Hechinger Report and distributed by PRX. It’s made possible by Lumina Foundation.

Thanks so much for listening.

The post College Uncovered, Season 3, Episode 2 appeared first on The Hechinger Report.

College has become a new battleground in the culture wars, and it’s affecting where students enroll and what they’re learning. 

Divisive protests, police crackdowns, and a chilling backlash against free speech are among the reasons that a growing number of students say they don’t feel welcome on some college campuses. 

In this election year, we talk about the politics of higher education, how it affects you and how to pick a college where you’ll feel welcome.

Conflicts over abortion, LGBTQ+ rights, and DEI, as well as what can and can’t be taught in classrooms, are stirring up campus life. 

A majority of students say abortion laws and restrictions around the discussion of race and gender would have at least some effect on where they go to college, according to a Gallup survey. 

It and other polls also find that some students at four-year universities feel as if they don’t belong or disrespected.

Students on the left and right alike say they’re increasingly reluctant to express controversial opinions, but that it’s okay to report on classmates or faculty who do. 

Hear more about this, against the backdrop of a contentious presidential election.

Listen to the whole series

TRANSCRIPT

Scroll to the end of this transcript to find out more about these topics.

Sound of promotional video: Congrats. Congrats. Congrats on getting into UC Davis! … Welcome to the friendliest. college campus!

Jon: This is a promotional video welcoming students to the University of California, Davis. 

Sound of violent protest

Kirk: And this is how welcoming the campus actually sounded when a conservative student group hosted a speaker who opposed abortion and disputed that there’s systemic racism in America. 

Jon: Protesters on one side said the speaker shouldn’t have been allowed to share his views at all. People on the other side wanted to hear him out. The event was canceled. 

Kirk: Welcome to college in America right now. 

Jon: More precisely, this is how unwelcoming college has become. Students and their parents say the breakdown of civility is affecting how they choose a school. And it’s gotten worse with the crackdowns on LGBTQ and reproductive rights and the conflict in Gaza. And we haven’t even discussed the looming presidential election. 

David Strauss is a partner in a consulting firm that conducted a survey about this. 

David Strauss: One out of four students told us that they had actually ruled out specific schools exclusively because of political considerations, and that proportion was basically equal whether a liberal student, a moderate student, or a conservative one. 

Kirk: So how do students and their families choose a college where they’ll feel they belong, where their views will be respected even by people who might disagree with them. Where they’ll hear both sides of an argument without someone trying to shut it down?

This is College Uncovered from GBH News and The Hechinger Report, a podcast pulling back the Ivy to reveal how colleges really work. 

I’m Kirk Carapezza with GBH News

Jon: And I’m Jon Marcus at The Hechinger Report. Colleges don’t want you to know how they operate. So GBH …

Kirk: … in collaboration with The Hechinger Report, is here to show you. In this election season, we’ll be exploring how deeply politicized higher education has become and what students and their parents can do to navigate these increasingly treacherous waters. 

Today on the show: “Unwelcome to College.”

Jon: So, Kirk, students used to pick a college based on its academic reputation and its social life. 

Kirk: Yeah, but the campus quad has become a battlefield in the culture war. 

Jon: There are assaults on speech and speakers from the left and the right, messy protests, new restrictions on abortion and LGBTQ rights, attacks on diversity and complaints about excessive wokeness. 

Kirk: Yeah. And for us as journalists, these conflicts have been hard to watch. But on a more human level, they’re affecting how welcome students from all backgrounds and points of view feel at many colleges and universities.

Jon: And how they pick a school. 

Lee Dunn: I want my child to be in a place that’s safe, that has a diversity of viewpoints and opinions, but doesn’t have, a situation that could feel unsafe, or where someone’s not open to my child being able to have an open debate. 

Kirk: That’s Lee Dunn. She’s the mother of a college-bound student, and I spoke with her at a Republican political rally. But she’s expressing a concern that extends pretty much across the political spectrum right now. 

Jon: That’s right, Kirk. Several national surveys show that a growing proportion of students and their families are picking colleges based on whether they’ll feel they belong. 

David Strauss: The liberal-leaning students tended to cite an array of issues that were mentioned by most respondents who had ruled out schools — reproductive rights, racial equality, LGBTQ+ restrictions, gun laws. Among the conservative students, it was more general: too Democratic, too liberal in terms of LGBTQ laws, conservative voices not welcome, and then too liberal on abortion and reproductive rights. 

Jon: That’s David Strauss again. He’s a partner in an education consulting group called Art & Science Group. And it did a poll that found a quarter of prospective students ruled out a college because of the political environment in the surrounding state. 

Strauss says abortion in particular has become a really polarizing issue for students since the Supreme Court decision two years ago allowing broad new state restrictions. 

David Strauss: Within a week, I received a call from a president of a client institution who told me that her state had moved very quickly to restrict reproductive rights. She heard from a mother asking, ‘How will you take care of my daughter when she returns to school?” She heard from several students — ‘I’m concerned about coming back.’ And she heard from a couple of prospective students saying, ‘I’m no longer coming.’ That phenomenon is probably playing out on the right as well. 

Kirk: And that’s just one issue, Jon. There are so many others. 

For example, since policies around diversity and equity started coming under attack, Black students are increasingly choosing to go to historically Black colleges where enrollments are up. And a national gay advocacy organization says young LGBTQ students who have been harassed are twice as likely to say they don’t plan to go to college at all. Lawmakers in several states have proposed more than 500 anti LGBTQ laws in recent years. 

Jon: Alyse Levine is a private college counselor in North Carolina, where she owns a company called Premium Prep. And she’s been seeing this a lot. 

Alyse Levine: We definitely have had students consider these policy changes, as well as just, like, the vibe of what they hear about on these campuses and who feels welcome and who feels like they can speak and who can’t speak. So I can think of a few LGBTQ students in particular, some transgender students who were feeling really uneasy and eliminating some schools because of their elimination of DEI policies. I would say we have an outspoken parent body, too. So it’s not just the students, it’s also parents drawing some lines of where they feel comfortable sending their students and where they feel comfortable sending their money. 

Jon: All kinds of students are experiencing this. Gallup finds that more than one in 10 students feel as if they don’t belong on campus. Even more than that reported feeling disrespected or unsafe, or they don’t think they can express their opinions freely. 

That’s one of the reasons Angela Amankwaah chose to enroll in an historically Black college, or HBCU — North Carolina Central University — where she’s a sophomore this fall. She’s a Black student from Denver. 

Angela Amankwaah: The political landscape really emphasized for me the importance of going to an HBCU, because I knew that I would be in a community of safe, welcoming both professors [and] peers, and just an institution that actually wanted me there. 

Jon: She says she’s felt welcome at the school compared to what she would expect to experience these days at a predominantly white institution. 

Angela Amankwaah: There’s not a single class where I’m the only Black student, or I’m the only Black woman. Like, there’s just Black students all around me. There’s nothing that I can do in terms of, like, my speech, the way I dress, or even things that happen on or off campus that are strange to other students. 

Jon: Javier Gomez left his home state of Florida after it restricted discussion in schools about sexual orientation. He went to college in New York instead. 

Javier Gomez: With the Don’t-Say-Gay bill that happened in 2022 and then expanded into higher education — I mean, some of those things make me feel unsafe as a student in the South. These policies are making it harder for us to speak our minds and also feel safe in our communities and in our schools. And I definitely felt unsafe because of the Florida policies have been implemented. It’s not easy, especially specifically being a queer and Latino and first-generation student. So it’s definitely been a hassle. 

Kirk: And now, since the conflict in Gaza, Jewish and Muslim students are reporting that they feel more uncomfortable on campus. Here’s college counselor Alyse Levine again. 

Alyse Levine: The biggest issue amongst our population this year was the rise in anti-semitism. And there was lots of hesitation among our students based on what was happening on particular campuses. 

Kirk: Maya Makarovskisays she heard chants she characterized as anti-semitic at MIT, where she’s a senior this year. She says fellow Jewish students are dropping out. 

Maya Makarovski: I know so many people that have taken semesters off or that are leaving MIT. And they’re, you know, grad students or postdocs, so they’re not going to go to another place. They’re just going to leave. It’s really heartbreaking. And I’ve seen it myself. You know, this semester and last semester, my academic performance and focus has just been completely shifted. It’s so difficult to maintain. 

Kirk: Surveys find conservative students feel especially unwelcome, and it’s liberal students who are much more likely to believe it’s okay to shut down a speaker who has opinions they don’t like, or report a professor or a fellow student for saying something they think is offensive. 

Here are a few more of the people I met at that Republican political rally: student Hayley Ebert and parents John DeMeritt and Jennifer Piacentini. 

Hayley Ebert: I didn’t want to take classes that I inherently disagreed with politically. 

John DeMeritt: It’s really something, as a parent, that you have to be mindful of. The people who claim to be the most tolerant are the least tolerant of anyone who doesn’t agree with their political views. If you’re not the right skin color or the right gender, all of this stuff plays into even admissions. 

Jennifer Piacentini: I don’t want them going to a small liberal school where it’s going to be all picketing and riots. 

Jon: Now, let’s put all this into context. Like a lot of political discussions these days, there’s a lot of heat. But part of what we do on this podcast is try to also bring some light. 

Colleges are really easy targets. They’re often accused of indoctrinating students into being woke leftists. But 18-year-olds already hold very liberal views. You remember being 18, right, Kirk? 

Kirk: It’s like it was yesterday. 

Jon: There’s a national survey from UCLA of incoming freshmen, and it finds that twice as many identify with the left as with the right. That’s before they ever set foot in a classroom. And even that Art & Science survey found that while politics might be affecting where students go to college, it’s not actually stopping them from going to college in the first place. 

David Strauss: It’s a striking observation you’re making, Jon. Given the volume of the discourse and the volume of concern we’re hearing from the right that colleges have become places of indoctrinating students, it was striking to us that only 2 percent of students who had told us they had been seriously considering going to a four-year institution, but had now decided not to do so — only 2 percent of those students told us that political considerations like those I’ve just described were even one of several factors. 

Jon: The proportion of conservative high school seniors who said they decided to not go to college for political reasons is a little higher. It’s around 5 percent. But that’s still lower than we might be led to assume. 

Kirk: So, okay, with that helpful context, how do you pick a college? How do you know where you’re going to feel like you belong? 

Jon: Colleges are all very different. Take it from Stephanie Marken, whose job is to study that as a senior partner at Gallup responsible for its work in higher education. 

Stephanie Marken: Some schools do a much better job of actually embracing the diversity of their student body and really making it a productive dialog between students, as opposed to a highly contentious and challenging culture, which is often where those experiences of disrespect set in. When a student actually reports that they went to an institution in which they were exposed to diversity, they’re more likely to say their degree is worth the cost. And that’s diversity in political ideology, party affiliation, religiosity, race, ethnicity — all types of diversity. 

Kirk: Of course, every college says it encourages intellectual diversity. But experts say you shouldn’t just rely on what they say or on the website or the campus tour. 

Carolyn Pippen: The thing about campus visits is that you really are just getting one perspective a lot of times. 

Jon: That’s Carolyn Pippen. She’s a private college counselor with the college counseling company IvyWise. 

Carolyn Pippen: So I also encourage students to do some more generalized research. So is there a multicultural center on campus? Is there an LGBTQ resource center on campus? And not just does it exist, but is it any good? Are they really doing things to support those students? Or reaching out to those offices, asking to connect with students who use those resources and getting information that way. There are also, I mean, you can Google college rankings and get a million useless websites, but there are also some really valid, reputable websites that will rank students based on friendliness towards LGBT students or, you know, how welcome do Black students feel on this campus? 

Jon: You can find a lot of those sources in The Hechinger Report’s “College Welcome Guide,” which tells you about laws and policies at universities and colleges in every state. We’ll post a link to it on this episode’s landing page, and to other resources. 

But to really get a sense of what it’s like on campus, Pippen says, you need to invest some time. 

Carolyn Pippen: Attend a class. If there’s an opportunity to stay overnight, stay in a dorm with another student. As much on-campus interaction as you can get, the better. Of course, that’s much more feasible further along in the process, when the schools that you’re looking at are more limited in number. You can’t do that with 30 different colleges. 

Jon: North Carolina college counselor Alyse Levine has another piece of advice: Don’t believe everything you read or see on TikTok. 

Alyse Levine: I think it is so important not to make sweeping generalizations about schools based on how a particular issue was mishandled. Going deeper means reaching out to a particular department. If it’s a larger university, you can reach out to a faculty member. Ask to sit in on a class and see what the dialog is like. Is there open discussion? Do conservatives feel like in these liberal bubbles they can’t speak their minds?

Kirk: Wherever students end up, Carolyn Pippen says they can usually find their own niche. 

Carolyn Pippen: Even if there is sort of an overarching feel, so to speak, to a campus or, you know, there’s one political stance or viewpoint or ideology that’s predominant, that doesn’t mean that there isn’t a community within that campus for them. I always tell students, like, there are theater nerds at MIT. There is a group of students like you on just about every campus. It’s just a matter of finding them. 

Jon: The alternative is more polarization and more division, if students only interact with other students just like them. That’s the fear of everyone we talk to, regardless of politics. 

John Bitzan directs the right-leaning Challey Institute for Global Innovation and Growth at North Dakota State University. 

John Bitzan: You know, as a parent, I mean, I have sent four kids to universities myself. And I think about, well, what do I want students to get out of the experience? Well, one thing I want them to get is I want them to be exposed to different points of view and learn from people that are different from them and learn that not everybody sees the world the same way. And I think those are really an important parts of the college experience for students. I think that we want to teach students how to deal with people who have different points of view than them in the real world. And, again, if we put them in an echo chamber, that’s not going to happen. 

Jon: Alyse Levine worries about this, too. 

Alyse Levine: I love that college campuses can still be places where there can be discussion and disagreement, and that it’s a safe place to kind of have that, and to learn. I hope our institutions don’t become so polarized like our society has become. It’s scary to think we might be moving in that direction. 

Jon: And here’s another twist. Remember Javier Gomez, the student who left Florida after Florida passed the Don’t-Say-Gay Bill? He ended up going back to finish his associate degree. 

Javier Gomez: If I’m not there, then that’s one less voice who’s fighting the fight to dismantle these discriminatory policies. So, yes, it may feel unsafe. It may feel uncomfortable. But, as well, your voice is so important. And so that’s why it was important for me to be in Miami and be in the spaces where I was not welcome. Because if I’m not in those spaces, who else is going to be in them? 

Kirk: This is College Uncovered, from GBH News and The Hechinger Report. I’m Kirk Carapezza …

Jon: … and I’m Jon Marcus. 

We’d love to hear from you. Send us an email to GBHNewsconnect@wgbh.org, or leave us a voicemail at (617) 300-2486. And tell us what you want to know about how colleges really operate. 

This episode was produced and written by Kirk Carapazza and Jon Marcus, and it was edited by Jeff Keating. 

Meg Woolhouse is supervising editor. 

Ellen London is executive producer. 

Production assistance from Diane Adame. 

Mixing and sound design by David Goodman and Gary Mott. 

Theme song and original music by Left Roman out of MIT. 

Mei He is our project manager, and head of GBH podcasts is Devin Maverick Robins. 

College Uncovered is a production of GBH News and The Hechinger Report and distributed by PRX. It’s made possible by Lumina Foundation.

Thanks so much for listening. 

The post College Uncovered, Season 3, Episode 1 appeared first on The Hechinger Report.

Students say the most important factor in choosing a college is academic quality. But the reality is, it’s really hard to tell how much college students actually learn.

While there are a lot of tests to get into college, there are no exit exams to get out. Despite the soaring price of tuition and the fact that most Americans strive to go to college, undergrads often spend little time studying compared to other activities. Instead, they’re working, socializing or partying and, as a result, show limited gains in critical thinking — the hallmark of American higher education.

At the same time, to address mental health concerns, colleges are creating more courses in fields like “the environmental humanities,” Hamilton and Taylor Swift studies and offering more and more wellness days.

So what’s really happening inside classrooms?

“College Uncovered” is made possible by Lumina Foundation.

Listen to the whole series

TRANSCRIPT

Kirk: Hey, Jon, do you remember that New York University professor who was fired after he was accused of being a little too tough on his students?

Jon: Right. His firing raised all kinds of questions about academic quality and safe spaces and snowflakes.

Kirk: Yeah. His name is Maitland Jones, and he taught organic chemistry for nearly 60 years, 43 at Princeton and then another 15 at NYU, before he was fired. Jones says he was very popular with many of his students, and he says he loved being in the classroom.

What were your students learning?

Maitland Jones: Well, nominally, they were learning organic chemistry, how to interpret the interplay of structure and reactivity. It’s been quite properly noted that many of these students will go on to medical school.

Kirk: Jon, you know the famous saying, write: ‘Save a life.’

Jon: Right: ‘Fail a pre-med.’

Kirk: Yeah. So we asked Jones, do pre-med students really need to know organic chemistry to become doctors?

Maitland Jones: Most doctors don’t really need to know the details of organic chemistry. And that’s right. But what they do need to know how to do is to problem-solve.

Kirk: Over his decades in the classroom, Jones noticed his students’ ability to problem-solve was declining, and as a result, more of his students were struggling. Jones found himself handing out more and more Fs. Then, during the pandemic, his students started a petition. But it didn’t stop there. The students’ parents called the dean to complain that Jones was being too tough on their kids. I mean, that makes sense, right? The families are doling out $50,000, $60,000 for their kids to go to NYU. They want to make sure they get a return on their investment. Right?

Maitland Jones: Well, I don’t think it’s supposed to be that transactional. At least I would hope it isn’t. You know, I’m an old timer, and I believe that there is value in, well, humanities, and a humanistic approach to teaching science.

Kirk: Ultimately, as the parental complaints piled up, NYU let him go.

Maitland Jones: I was fired.

Kirk: Because you were trying to maintain standards?

Maitland Jones: I think I’ve got to avoid that question.

Kirk: Welcome to College Uncovered, a podcast pulling back the ivy to reveal how colleges really work. I’m Kirk Carapezza with GBH.

Jon: And I’m Jon Marcus with The Hechinger Report. Between us, we’ve been covering higher education for years.

Kirk: And in the process, we’ve learned that higher education is a huge, multibillion-dollar-a-year industry. With colleges treating tuition-paying students like customers, and schools increasingly operating like giant corporations.

Jon: So we’re here to tell you some of their most closely held secrets about quality, and what you get for your hard-earned bucks.

Kirk: Today on the show: ‘What Do You Learn and What Will You Earn?’

Okay, so students say one of the most important factors in choosing a college is academic quality or rigor.

Jon: Sure, just behind getting a job. But the reality is that it’s really hard to tell how much students actually learn in college, and whether what they learn will lead to a career. There are a lot of tests to get into college, but there are few exit exams, you know, to demonstrate that you’ve actually learned anything.

Kirk: Perhaps that’s why a declining percentage of Americans see practical value in college degrees. A report from Gallup and Strada Education Network finds that the top reason students attend college is to get a good job. Yet only a quarter of working Americans with college experience strongly agreed that their education was relevant to their work and daily life.

Despite the soaring price of tuition and the fact that most Americans strive to go to college and then get a good job, research shows undergrads often spend a little time studying compared to other activities. Instead, they’re working, socializing or partying, and research finds — get this, Jon — college students show limited gains in critical thinking, the hallmark of American higher education.

Josipa Roksa: Students are not spending adequate time on academics and academic pursuits. And that has consequences for how much they learn in higher education.

Kirk: That’s Josipa Roksa. She’s a sociology professor at the University of Virginia and coauthor of the book Academically Adrift.

Josipa Roksa: And so the data shows that, you know, many students are not making much progress on the critical-thinking skills over the first two years. And it’s not surprising, if you think about the limited number of time spent in class, limited number of time spent studying, then limited gains in critical-thinking skills makes logical sense. Because you have to actually work and develop those skills. And if you’re not investing the time to do it, you’re not going to develop them.

Kirk: If you’ve listened to our other episodes from the season, and you’ve managed to pay for college, and now you’re hoping to develop critical-thinking skills and trying to figure out what you’re going to learn in college, where do you think, Jon, would be the natural place to start?

Jon: Hmm. The course catalog?

Kik: Yes. The menu, Jon. That’s why I took a long look at how course catalogs have changed and expanded over time.

A few years ago, I went out to Amherst College in western Massachusetts, where Catherine Epstein took me down to the school’s archives.

Catherine Epstein: We have the papers of some relatively famous alums, and then we have lots of information just on the history of the college.

Kirk: Epstein is dean of the faculty at the small liberal arts college. Amherst enrolls about 1,900 students and offers more than 850 courses, many of them small seminars.

Catherine Epstein: So these guys are interested in catalogs.

Archivist: Great. Yeah. We pulled the three that you requested.

Kirk: Sitting around a big oak table, Epstein and I dust off the 1966 leather-bound course catalog and compare it to the 2016 paperback.

Kirk: My catalog only has 223 pages, and that includes the index.

Catherine Epstein: This is the 2015-16 catalog. It has 591 pages.

Kirk: More pages means a lot more choices. In the late 1960s, Amherst and other liberal arts colleges responded to faculty demands and switched from a core curriculum, where students all took the same courses, like English, math, and the history of western civilization, to an open curriculum, giving students many options with very few requirements outside their majors.

Catherine Epstein: You can do anything that you want. If you never want to take a science class, you don’t have to take a science class.

Kirk: As we flip through the 2016 catalog. Epstein gives me a sampling of some of the history department’s offerings, like ‘Birth of the Avant-Garde: Modern Poetry and Culture in France and Russia, 1870 to 1930.’

Kirk: That’s not obscure?

Catherine Epstein: That is not obscure. No.

Kirk: Epstein defends every single course in the catalog.

Catherine Epstein: It’s all good stuff, as long as it’s taught in a rigorous way where students are challenged, where students can express their thoughts.

Kirk: With a $2 billion endowment and a $60,000 sticker price, Amherst can afford to pay faculty to teach all these courses. But as the cost of college continues to soar, critics are raising questions.

Michael Poliakoff is president of the American Council of Trustees and Alumni, which finds most of the country’s leading colleges don’t have rigorous general education requirements. Poliakoff keeps tabs on those courses that he thinks are foolish.

Michael Poliakoff: ‘Video Games and the Boundaries of Narrative.’ ‘Knowing Television.’ ‘Disney for Grown-ups.’

Kirk: Poliakoff has spent a lot of time studying the evolution of course catalogs.

Michael Poliakoff: What we’ve seen is the multiplication of course options, often without any real respect for the kind of intellectual nutrition that students need.

Kirk: He thinks too many colleges treat their students like customers. And he points to recent studies that found many college students finish their four years without learning much more than what they came in with.

Professors at Amherst reject that criticism. While some of their courses may sound soft, they say students are in fact learning hard skills.

Nicola Courtright: How to analyze a text. How to understand an argument.

Kirk: Nicola Courtright teaches art history at Amherst. She says the college’s open curriculum creates an ideal learning environment.

Nicola Courtright: Students know that they’re not just taking classes because they should, or they might get a job afterwards. They really have to take it out of fundamental interest.

Kirk: But, Jon, now sticker prices at some colleges like Amherst, Wellesley, Boston University and NYU are breaking the $90,000-a-year barrier. That includes tuition, fees, room and board and a meal plan, and maybe a fancy computer. Other schools aren’t far behind. So as college sticker prices have soared, more and more students and families have a justifiable interest in getting a return on their investment.

Jon: Ah, yes. The ROI. It makes sense. I mean, you can’t blame them. If you’re going to pay a steep price tag and take out loans and take on debt, you probably want to know what you’re actually getting for your money, and whether it will lead to a job where you can pay off those loans.

Kirk: New data show that how much you earn over a lifetime largely depends on your choice of major internships and getting a well-paying first job after graduation.

Jon: Yeah, but five and even 10 years after graduation, about half of college-educated workers remain underemployed, meaning they’re ending up in jobs where the degrees they earned aren’t needed. The research organization Burning Glass Institute recently tracked the career paths of 10 million people who entered the job market over the past decade. It found even 10 years out, the number of grads in jobs that don’t make use of their skills or credentials is 52 percent. Advocates want colleges to be more open about what students and their families get for their investment.

Jane Swift: Just like the college admissions process, it is not transparent. It needs to be more transparent.

Kirk: Jane Swift is president of Education at Work, a nonprofit that helps match students with Fortune 500 companies that have workforce shortages.

Jane Swift: Both the people who pay — students — as well as people who hire you have a hard time qualifying exactly what it is that you gain. And I think that there needs to be better efforts to articulate that.

Kirk: Swift is also the former governor of Massachusetts, a state — you might have noticed — with a few colleges and universities. And she says while some of these schools are doing better than others, she’d like to see the federal government hold them all accountable under the so-called Gainful Employment Rule.

Jon: Right, the Gainful Employment Rule that sounds very wonky.

Kirk: Yeah, this long-delayed regulation from the U.S. Education Department is finally set to go into effect in 2026. And, basically, here’s how it works: Students who enroll in an academic program that leaves graduates with debt they can’t afford will have to sign a disclosure agreement. The agreement says that they understand their education might not lead to a well-paying job. The Education Department says the goal is to provide families with more information about the costs and risks, but it only applies to for profit colleges and non-degree programs. Jane Swift points out that colleges and the higher ed lobby strongly oppose it.

Jane Swift: I think they believe it’s a veiled attempt to regulate out for-profit education. And it’s, you know, all students need jobs no matter where you go to college. If it’s good policy, it should be good policy for everyone.

Kirk: By everyone, she means not just for-profit and non-degree programs, but all degree programs.

Jane Swift: I think there’s good players and value in degrees in both nonprofit and for-profit. I think what we really need to understand is what are the outcomes and how can you improve your ability to achieve a positive outcome? You know, I have a liberal arts degree. Two of my three daughters received a liberal arts degree and one received a math degree. But my aspirations for all three of them with that investment were the same. It was a j-o-b at the end of that investment.

Kirk: Swift says more college students need to have work-based learning opportunities, working both before they go to college and then during their college careers, so they can get a job. She says these experiences can give them skills that aren’t taught in the classroom.

Since his days as an engineering professor at Iowa State, Richard Miller has long advocated for more transparency about what students learn and earn.

Richard Miller:  I’m the former president of Olin College of Engineering, where I spent 21 years, and since leaving there, I’ve begun working with others to develop a coalition aimed at changing higher education more broadly.

Most students attend college with the objective of finding their first career. Something like half of all of them, if you interview them, will tell you, ‘The reason I’m here is for my first career.’ But faculty don’t normally think that way. Faculty think about, it’s deeper than that. It’s about changing your life. And that’s kind of a disconnect here in who’s hearing what message.

Kirk: That disconnect appears to be widening. Some students just aren’t going to college straight out of high school. And those who do enroll are increasingly selecting career-focused majors. Fewer college students are majoring in liberal arts subjects like philosophy or English and political science, like you did, Jon.

Jon: Yeah, or history, like you did, Kirk. Over the past 50 years, the percentage of students graduating with a degree in the humanities has fallen by half.

Skepticism about the value of a liberal arts degree is now pretty widespread. In his Netflix special, Kid Gorgeous, comedian John Mulaney riffs about the cost of his English degree from Georgetown.

John Mulaney: Yes, you heard me. An English major. I paid $120,000. How dare you clap? How dare you clap for the worst financial decision I ever made in my life? I paid $120,000 for someone to tell me to go read Jane Austen. And then I didn’t.

Kirk: Despite this growing skepticism, college humanities programs have been found to still offer value. A 2023 report by the American Academy of Arts and Sciences concluded humanities majors’ incomes are 40 percent higher than those with a high school degree. At the same time, humanities professors defend new emerging courses or fields, like ‘Taylor Swift and her World’ or the Environmental humanities. They say both are directly relevant to students’ lives and, of course, boost enrollment in their struggling departments.

Richard Miller, an engineer by training, is deeply skeptical of this approach.

Richard Miller: As the country and I think as the world is moving towards addressing sustainability, you can see lots of investments in this area. There’s going to be a lot of careers built on this, but most of those careers are going to require more than having read something about it. It’s going to require some science background and will require understanding how to use what we’ve learned to make an impact.

We’ve got a whole video, by the way, about the rise of the environmental humanities and what it says about the state of higher education, on the GBH News YouTube channel. So check it out. Okay, for now, Miller says too many students are being led to a buffet of college courses and then wondering, hmm, what’s on the menu?

Richard Miller: So they flip through the catalog and they say, ‘Oh, here’s a course in environmental science. It’s taught by the, you know, the Geology Department. But look, they have all these courses in chemistry that are required in mathematics. And I didn’t take a lot of that in high school. Be really hard to do that. Oh, but here’s a course in environmental humanities. Okay. It doesn’t have those science course backgrounds. What’s the difference? This is accessible to me. So I’m going to study this,’ which is great. But you have to realize that when they get to the end of the road, somebody needs to help them understand what career opportunities are with these different labels on them. And I think, personally, higher education could do a much better job of informing kids what the outcome is with these different fields.

Kirk: At the end of the day, these students will become graduates who are facing a job market, right? And they don’t all have the same market value.

Jon: Another way you can learn about the market value of certain degrees and programs is from the Hamilton Project at the Brookings Institution. This nonprofit does a detailed study about incomes and jobs for people with different academic backgrounds. We’ll also post a link to that on our landing page.

Kirk: Okay, let’s be clear here, because in many ways, Jon, colleges and universities are operating like large corporations that resist transparency. Corporations with bosses who need to make budget decisions based on customer demand. So if there’s a sudden student interest in, let’s say, Taylor Swift studies or sports management or climate change literature, they ditch those low-enrollment courses in 18^th-century literature or modern poetry and culture, and France and Russia, 1870 to 1930, after the old professor retires. Then they reallocate that faculty position to another department, like computer science or data analytics, which has growing enrollment.

Jon: Yeah, and this is happening everywhere, as colleges try to balance their budgets and make their courses more relevant and more marketable.

Kirk: Sure. But more old-school faculty think students and families are too focused on their return on investment. And higher education should take this opportunity, when it’s under so much public scrutiny, to reimagine general education. They say academic programs should broaden students’ understanding of the world and strengthen their critical-thinking skills, write clearly, speak with confidence and consider differing viewpoints.

Andrew Delbanco: We really want to be careful about losing the broader purpose of college, which in this country has always been an institution that gives young people an opportunity. And that kind of gray space between adolescence and adulthood gives them an opportunity to think about who they are, and more particularly, who they want to be.

Kirk: That’s Andrew Delbanco. He teaches American studies at Columbia, and he’s president of the Teagle Foundation, which is helping dozens of colleges reimagine their curriculum.

Andrew Delbanco: Our country, after all, claims to be different from all other countries because we tell our citizens, you have freedom. What it means to be an American is that you can decide for yourself by what means you wish to pursue happiness. That phrase that is enshrined in our Declaration of Independence. And so college has been a very important institution for hundreds of years, by which we try to make good on that promise.

Kirk: That promise to pursue happiness sounds amazing, right? But what specifically are college students learning, and how do we know it will lead to a career?

Andrew Delbanco: We know, frankly, way too little about what students are learning. We give our diplomas out on the basis of earned credits. But we have very little idea what those credits really represent, in the sense of what what’s actually happened to the student’s mind in the course of earning those credits. I mean, every teacher likes to think that they’ve got some reasonable evaluation system in place, which is called grading. But we all know that we have rampant grade inflation. So even the grading system tells us very little about whether students are learning a lot or a little or nothing much at all. So this is a big problem.

Kirk: It’s a huge problem for the higher ed industry. I think it’s safe to say everyone agrees on that. But Delbanco and other academics worry that colleges are cheating young people and the country if they focus too much on job training and gainful employment and don’t give them the chance to pause, learn and then think deeply.

Andrew Delbanco: We want to have democratic-informed citizens in our country, people who are thoughtful about history, have some idea of what the big issues of the day are about and what our democratic institutions are about, why we have checks and balances [in] government, where all the power is not concentrated in one branch or another. We want young people to reflect on their responsibilities as citizens, not just their opportunities as consumers.

Kirk: Delbanco says colleges shouldn’t tell students what to think or believe, but challenge them and ask them hard questions.

Andrew Delbanco: That’s what a college should be, and we need colleges to continue to be that for the sake of the students and for the sake of our democracy.

Kirk: And, Jon, for the record, Delbanco defends the incredible growing course catalog at Amherst and other colleges.

Andrew Delbanco: One reason has gotten so much larger than it used to be is because there’s more knowledge, right? I mean, especially in the sciences, the proliferation of specialized knowledge is mind boggling.

Kirk: To stay relevant. Delbanco says more and more schools are placing a special, renewed emphasis on the importance of general education.

Andrew Delbanco: Which is the term we use to describe that moment at the beginning of college, before the student has decided which specialty is right for him or her. The college has to put up in front of incoming students a serious general education experience so that they’re not plunged immediately into this bewildering, overwhelming, you know, endless menu of choices.

Jon: One of the schools tweaking its gen ed courses is Vanderbilt University in Nashville, Tennessee, where the sticker price is now approaching $100,000 a year. Remember, Kirk, the Chivas Regal effect?

Kirk: Oh, yeah. Well, if you’re charging that much for your whiskey or your degrees, you’ve got to do some quality control from time to time, right?

Well, so colleges and universities now reimagine their curriculum every 20, 25 years. It’s like, I don’t know, the cicadas or something like that.

Jon: Sarah Igo chairs the American History Department at Vanderbilt and is an intellectual historian.

Kirk: Intellectual historian? What does that mean?

Sarah Igo: What that means is I study the history of ideas rather than, say, public policy or economic development or wars or that kind of thing. I study the stuff of culture and ideas and how those change.

Kirk: When it comes to ideas, what kind of ideas are students learning in college and why don’t we know?

Sarah Igo: It’s a great question. A hard question to answer. Students are learning all kinds of things, of course, in college. And we don’t know because we probably haven’t been as attentive as we should be about evaluating and assessing what they know and how they know and how they learn, as I would argue, what is more important than either of the things: how to ask questions to get them further along the path toward either of those objectives.

Jon: As an intellectual historian, Igo says, historically, what students learn can’t be captured in a single answer or data point.

Sarah Igo: Because universities and colleges offer such an incredible wealth of options — electives, majors, minors, small credential programs. It’s the wealth of what is offered. And then the number of pathways through is really quite astonishing and would have astonished someone looking at college, or who went to college 100 years ago, or honestly even 75 years ago. The big explosion in electives and kind of choose your own adventure really happened after the mid century, mid 20th century.

Kirk: Okay, Vanderbilt has been around for 150 years. Why is the university reimagining its general education now? What’s the goal?

Sarah Igo: We are, I would say, part of a kind of movement. I won’t say back because it’s not back. It’s definitely forward. But a kind of move toward a more common understanding of what students need from their college education, and particularly what they need to understand is the value of a liberal arts education, which, you know, has gotten kind of battered in public culture in recent decades, and maybe especially in the last year or so.

Jon: Kirk, I went to a conference recently of higher education people, and they had a panel about this. And they concluded that two of the most unpopular words in the English language right now in America are ‘liberal’ and ‘arts.’ That’s why Vanderbilt a few years ago committed to taking a hard look at what students and graduates really need to succeed today. But Igo says the committee charged with reimagining gen ed quickly ran into a brick wall.

Sarah Igo: We didn’t actually have an idea of what general education was or what it should be. We actually didn’t even have a vocabulary for it. And so, our first effort was to kind of figure out, you know, for students in the 21st century, what is a meaningful liberal arts education? How do we help them, see that value? How do we help our own faculty articulate what that is? And what does it mean? We need to reform about how we’re doing things.

Jon: Igo says she and other university leaders decided students needed some common intellectual experience.

Sarah Igo: It doesn’t need to be a canon. Doesn’t need to be western civ. Doesn’t need to be a kind of older model of a foundation or a core. But students actually would really benefit from faculty designing a program, especially in the first year, that all students take in common, to get a chance to understand the richness and breadth of a liberal arts education. Right? Read something from philosophy, read something from economics, read something from neuroscience, that are circling around the same question perhaps. That’s how our new curriculum is designed. And mentor them in small groups where the idea is to think about big questions, but also to learn how to read and write in ways that will serve them well for the rest of their college career and beyond.

Kirk: Chemist Renã Robinson is one of the Vanderbilt faculty mentors.

Renã Robinson: I teach the science, technology and values core course for undergraduate freshman students. But I also teach upper-level chemistry courses and graduate-level chemistry courses and things like mass spectrometry.

Kirk: Do you teach organic chemistry?

Renã Robinson: Absolutely not.

Kirk: Okay, so what do students get out of this new program? Like, if I’m a chemist or chemistry student, what why do I need general education?

Renã Robinson: I think what general education does is it causes you to question the history behind some of the things that you’re learning. It gives you an opportunity to ask questions about how does the way that I’m being taught and the material that I’m being taught provide value to me or provide value to society? And, I think, for our students to learn how to think critically. General education is a great space to do that because when they get into courses like chemistry and upper-level chemistry courses, we want them to be critical thinkers, especially around data that they’re generating or data that we’re providing them in classes and these hard, sometimes abstract phenomena. And so if they have the skill set to already think critically, then they can do well when they get to these classes.

Kirk: Robinson says reimagining gen ed helps, but what’s really important is a good evaluation mechanism, something to understand what students are learning.

Renã Robinson: So in this core pilot course, there is an assessment of what students know and what they’re thinking about, the topic, generally before they come into the course, and then there are surveys that are given to the students throughout the course and at the end of it. And there are also surveys that are given to faculty who work piloting and teaching these different types of courses throughout, as well as some of the faculty that are helping to coordinate the courses across different sections.

Chloe Whalen: My name is Chloe Whalen, and I am a communication of science and technology major. It’s the new kind of arts and science program at Vanderbilt.

Jon: Whalen is from a small town in Illinois. The daughter of a teacher and a firefighter, she received generous financial aid to attend Vanderbilt, and her parents are helping her pay the rest. She and her parents want a return on that investment — a j-o-b at the end. So Whalen says academic quality in choosing a college was extremely important to her.

Chloe Whalen: Like, at the end of the day, you know, you go to college for the academics. Yes, you know, you want there to be good sports teams, if you’re into that. You hope that the dining food isn’t too bad. But at the end of the day, like, if the college doesn’t have good academics, what are you spending your money on? It’s basically just a summer camp where you go to a few classes.

Kirk: In her first semester on campus, the new gen ed class she enrolled in was called ‘Being Human: Encountering Others.’

Chloe Whalen: When I signed up for it, I was, like, this sounds like I’m just going to be sitting around, like, thinking, just like an old, like, Greek philosopher. And I was kind of, like, I feel, like that’s going to get a little boring. Like, am I really paying to go to college just to sit and talk about, like, the meaning of life? You know, I don’t really know how I really felt about that. I came in thinking it was going to be my least favorite class that semester, and it ended up actually being my favorite.

Kirk: Why was it your favorite?

Chloe Whalen: The level of discussion we had in that class was really good, and I felt like every time we were all very engaged in it. We all had thoughts and opinions to share, and it really did make me think a lot about kind of why I was here. Like, not just on earth, like, at college and, like. what that says about my future and what I want for it. And also, just, like, human nature, what sets us apart? Why are we the species that, you know, wears clothes and has, like, different languages and also, you know, does things like go to college —what makes us do that?

Kirk: That’s a great question.

Kirk: That’s a great question. And it’s one that I had to spend a lot of time thinking about last semester.

Kirk: So why did you go?

Chloe Whalen: I kind of felt like it’d be a missed opportunity to not go to college, just because I’d always done well in school. You know academics always came easy to me. So I was, like, well, I got to go to college, and I guess I just decided, like, once I got past that sense of, like, obligation that I had felt and really thought about what makes me want to do this and not just the feeling that I have to.

Jon: It’s easy to say kids today don’t learn as well or as much as they used to. Sarah Igo, the intellectual historian, says she does think we’re in a moment where a whole lot of things are conspiring to make traditional learning more difficult.

Sarah Igo: Beyond Covid, beyond mental health crises, which are, of course, related, I think I would put first the war for attention on students’ brains. It’s really clear. And students are quite frank about this. You ask them, you know, about the reading for a class. They’ll say that they don’t read, they can’t read uninterrupted, that they can’t sit and read for a chunk of time. And that chunk of time, I think, is getting smaller and smaller. Too many things whistling, buzzing, etc. And there are some steps we can take to deal with that. I mean, one of the things we’re experimenting with, which I’m most excited about, is devoting some of our classes in the first-year class sessions to reading. I mean, this whole period for an hour in 15 minutes, all we’re going to do is read together.

Jon: And that brings us back to Maitland Jones, the organic chemist we heard at the top of this episode, who reportedly was fired for being too tough on his students. Jones says reducing digital distractions and increasing in-person attendance really matter.

Maitland Jones: Absolutely. Here’s an experiment: Give an exam on Friday. It’s graded that night. The students get their grades either late Friday night or Saturday morning. So they all know. The first lecture, Monday or Tuesday, you pass around a yellow pad and ask the students to just write their score. No names, nothing like that. Just the number, right? So you can get the average score of the people in class. And since you know the overall average, you can back out the average score for those who are not in class. And there’s a 20-point difference. So yes, it really matters whether you have your body in that classroom.

Kirk: Jones says it’s increasingly tempting to say, oh, you know, students are just struggling with the effects of Covid and mental health. But he says that’s not right.

Maitland Jones: The decline in student attendance and students’ ability to read and answer the right question was happening well before that. Covid was important because the sort of gentle decline and how things were going fell off a cliff. But it was happening before. And for 10 or 12 years, many of us noticed that not only were student grades going down and student attendance was going down, but their ability to read a question and to answer the right question was going down. There was an epidemic in answering the wrong question.

Kirk: So what was happening 10 years ago? Jones says the decline coincided with the widespread adoption of the iPhone.

Maitland Jones: It’s unbelievably seductive, and like social media in general, it’s so seductive that it seems to have dragged students away from certainly the classroom and, in a way, from the notion that learning requires pretty serious effort.

Kirk: Today, at 86 years old, Jones is retired and living in rural new Jersey in a renovated barn.

Maitland Jones: It’s got a great big room and a very good piano.

Kirk: With his newfound free time, he organizes jazz concerts, and he recently co-produced a six TV set of the complete works of Thelonius Monk.

Maitland Jones: Which, by the way, is absolutely great, thanks to the musicians.

Kirk: Do you miss the classroom and the lab? Would you still like to be teaching?

Maitland Jones: I would. On the other hand, how many years was it? Forty-three and 15? That’s a lot of years.

Kirk: A pretty good run.

Maitland Jones: I wouldn’t say that I didn’t have a good time doing.

Kirk: This is College Uncovered from GBH and The Hechinger Report. I’m Kirk Carapezza …

Jon: … and I’m Jon Marcus. We’d love to hear from you. Send us an email to GBHNewsconnect@wgbh.org, or leave us a voicemail at 617-300-2486. And tell us what you want to know about how colleges really operate.

This episode was produced and written by Kirk Carapezza. …

Kirk: … and Jon Marcus, and it was edited by Jeff Keating. Meg Woolhouse is supervising editor. Ellen London is executive producer. Production assistance from Diane Adame.

Jon: Mixing and sound design by David Goodman and Gary Mott. All of our music is from college bands. The theme song and original music in this episode is by Left Roman out of MIT. Mei He is our project manager, and head of GBH podcasts is Devin Maverick Robins.

Kirk: College Uncovered is a production of GBH News and The Hechinger Report and distributed by PRX. It’s made possible by Lumina Foundation.

The post College Uncovered, Season 2, Episode 8 appeared first on The Hechinger Report.

Students at one New York university have a surprise awaiting them: an $8,000-a-year “academic excellence fee.” We have to ask: Isn’t academic excellence included in tuition? In fact, tuition is only part of the cost of college. Like car dealerships, schools are nickel-and-diming consumers with huge fees — fees for student activities, fees for athletics, fees for building maintenance, fees for libraries, even fees for graduation, the bills for which arrive just as students and their families thought they were finally done paying for college.

Unexpected fees are frustratingly piled on top of a long list of expenses for college beyond tuition that many people never plan for or expect, or that can’t be covered by financial aid, sometimes forcing them to take out more and more loans, or quit college altogether. One study estimates that fees add 27 percent to student charges, on top of the typical cost of tuition. They’ve also been increasing far faster than tuition. That’s because some colleges and universities want to make tuition look like it’s staying flat, instead putting their increased charges into fees.

At public universities, many of these fees are added “temporarily” during times when state budgets are cut, but they seldom if ever go away. Graduate students bear a big brunt of them. Graduate students pay fees of $4,653 per year at Louisiana State University, $3,622 at North Carolina State and $3,160 at the University of Tennessee.

“College Uncovered” is made possible by Lumina Foundation.

Listen to the whole series

Kirk: Okay, we’re in very windy Maryville, Missouri, population 12,000. It’s home to Northwest Missouri State, which is surrounded by farmland, cows, and I can see wind turbines in the distance. The public university has about 8500 students. Most of them live here on campus, and all of them pay substantial fees. That’s because the state of Missouri limited tuition increases for a decade. So to keep up with costs, the university kept adding fees. We’re going to stop by the student center, which has a Chick-fil-A inside, to ask students about these fees.

Sitting in the back is Angela Kinzel, a graduate student. She recommends the waffle fries, by the way, and she works as a graduate assistant. So her tuition, it’s covered 100 percent.

Angela Kinzel: So I’m really only paying the fees. Which is just as bad.

Kirk: Why is it just as bad?

Angela Kinzel: I’d say it’s probably about probably a third of my tuition.

Kirk: Kinzel is studying to be a science teacher. Like the rest of the country, Missouri desperately needs more teachers, especially in science and math. That’s why she can’t believe how many fees there are getting in the way of her graduating and earning a degree that will allow her to teach.

Angela Kinzel: Well, there’s a technology fee. Since I’m a graduate student, we have textbook fees, which is like $20 a rental. And then I live on campus as well, so dorms and the food that’s associated with that. There’s also a graduate fee, I believe. So, super fun.

Kirk: Do you feel like you’re being nickel and dimed?

Angela Kinzel: Oh, absolutely. Yeah. Throughout my five years here, it’s just gotten worse. And so really looking at the bill, it definitely makes you do a double take and be, like, is it actually worth it?

Jon: This is College Uncovered, a podcast pulling back the ivy to reveal how colleges really work. I’m Jon Marcus with The Hechinger Report …

Kirk: … and I’m Kirk Carapezza with GBH.

Jon: Colleges don’t want you to know how they operate. So GBH …

Kirk: In collaboration with The Hechinger Report, is here to show you.

Today on the show: “Nickel and Dimed.”

Jon: It depends on the school, of course, but colleges can charge you for basically anything, Kirk. From fees for campus services like a shuttle bus you may or may not use to student academic fees or athletic fees.

Kirk: Yeah. At northwestern Missouri State, it’s called a “designated fee.” More and more colleges are using these generic charges as substitutes for tuition. They use the revenue to pay for things like facility improvements, debt and sustainability, health and wellness.

Jon: So here’s the gist. In about 30 states, there’s some kind of control or limit on what public colleges can charge for tuition, but there’s less control over fees. So if you’ve been paying attention to our podcast, you know colleges always seem to find a way to get the money, right?

Kirk: Yes, I’d say that has been a major takeaway, Jon. Of course, going to college and earning a degree is worth it if you graduate on time and with less debt. College is good. More jobs in the future will require education beyond high school. But the higher ed landscape, it’s pretty rocky. And we found there’s a real lack of transparency surrounding pricing and, as we’ll explore in our next episode, outcomes.

Jon: Well, as a result of tuition freezes, fees have gone up faster than tuition over time.

Kirk: Because it’s usually easier to increase or add new fees than tuition.

Jon: Of course, that’s right.

Kirk: I know you’ve done quite a bit of reporting on this, Jon. What do you see as some of the most egregious examples?

Jon: I mean, my favorite is the academic excellence fee I found at one university in New York. I mean, you’d think that academic excellence is included in tuition, right? I’ve also seen academic building fees, academic credentialing fees, academic facility and life safety fees, arts and cultural enrichment fees — they go on and on. Bicycle path maintenance fees, campus environmental improvement fees, campus spirit fees — that’s a good one. ID card fees, safety fees and solar energy fees. One university charges — this is unbelievable — one university charged what it called a “free, anonymous HIV testing fee.”

Kirk: All right. There are also those fees that just annoy students but provide a revenue stream. So think about graduation fees and fees for transcripts. Colleges say it’s all to support the student experience.

Robert Kelchen: That there are colleges that will charge several hundred dollars a semester in an academic support or an excellence fee. And it’s basically tuition living under another name.

Kirk: That’s. Economist Robert Kelchen. Kelchen is at the University of Tennessee, Knoxville, and he teaches higher ed finance. So during his office hours, I asked Kelchen: Why are colleges doing this?

Robert Kelchen: The first is, for public colleges, they often don’t get to control how much they raise tuition, but they may have more control over fees. And this is a way to get the revenue that they’re looking for.

Kirk: Think of it like a balloon, Jon. Okay, so you squeeze one end, right? And the other end expands. But the overall cost, it doesn’t go down. The other big reason, Kelchen says, is that some scholarships, like the one Angela Kinzel got at Northwest Missouri State, are full tuition, but they don’t cover fees.

Robert Kelchen: And colleges and states often want to push charges into fees so students pay for it instead of scholarships.

Kirk: Kelchen defends the practice — if colleges use the revenue generated from these fees to do things like hire more faculty or offer academic advisors. He says colleges are not businesses, even if they act like them sometimes.

Robert Kelchen: They’re nonprofit, mission oriented, but they also need the money to be able to pay employees. And if the money’s not coming from the state and enrollment is down, they have to get money from somewhere. And often fees are the only way that they can get the money.

Kirk: Not having enough courses or academic advising, after all, could cause students to drop out.

Kelchen says careful consumers should be on the lookout for things like mandatory athletic fees.

Robert Kelchen: They can be very large at some institutions. If we look at some of the institutions in Virginia, North Carolina, it’s like $1,000 a year just to support athletics.

Kirk: And Jon, you’d think it’s the schools with big time athletic programs charging these big athletic fees. But it’s not.

Robert Kelchen: It’s the ones that are trying to keep up with them because they don’t have the same revenue coming in and they’re subsidizing basically everything through student fees.

Jon: So we understand that this is yet another part of the college process that consumers need to be aware of. And, Kirk, it can be overwhelming. But we don’t want people to worry. We’ll have a few tips on how to navigate all of this and potential solutions at the end of this episode. So stay tuned for that.

Kirk: Okay, for now, Kelchen says all of these mandatory fees make it really hard for families to calculate how much college will actually cost.

Robert Kelchen: They certainly don’t help. Students are going to end up paying the same no matter what. It’s just what they’re labeled under. And the big difference can be, what can they apply financial aid to?

Kirk: And what do the fees look like there at the University of Tennessee?

Robert Kelchen: We have some fees. And actually, the only increase we had to student charges this past year was in fees. Tuition was flat, but there were increased fees for facilities and to fund transportation. Because parking on this campus is an absolute nightmare.

Kirk: Okay, Jon, this is another thing that came up in my reporting at Northwest Missouri State. Students there say parking is also a nightmare, and campus police are pretty aggressive about parking tickets, which students view as just another revenue stream.

Lucas Nocker: I’m terrible about parking fees.

Kirk: Lucas Nocker from Smithville, Missouri, is a freshman.

Lucas Nocker: I racked up a bunch of parking fees first semester. I think I had something over $200, which is kind of embarrassing because the rules are pretty clear.

Kirk: Full disclosure here, Jon. I thought that the rules were pretty clear, too, and that I was parked in a safe spot. But when I left the campus center’s Chick-fil-A and headed back to my car, I noticed a little something on my windshield.

Kirk, at Northwest Missouri State: I just came back to my car, my rental car. I got a traffic and parking violation here, $30 fine, “no permit displayed.” I thought I was in the clear. So I’m going to try to expense this.

Jon: Good luck with that. You know, this is public media, right? Okay, pledge now to help Kirk Carapezza pay his parking ticket.

Kirk: It’s going to work.

There could be consequences, you know, if you’re a student and you don’t pay that ticket or the graduation fee or the sports activity fee. Some schools will withhold your transcript, even for relatively small unpaid amounts. We’ll post a link to some of our previous reporting on transcript holds on our landing page.

Okay, so to learn more about how all of these fees work and how we got here, we reached out to Jeongeun Kim.

Jeongeun Kim: I’m an associate professor of higher education at the University of Maryland. My research primarily touches on how universities and colleges are organizing their major practices and policies, including pricing behaviors in response to, you know, their environmental changes.

Kirk: Environmental changes, Kim says, include basic supply-and-demand economics. Her research focuses primarily on the mandatory fees that are required for everybody, but specifically full-time undergraduate students. And she finds that, as of last year, public four-year universities were charging about $1,600 per semester just in fees for in-state students.

Jeongeun Kim: And that’s typically adding about 20 percent, you know, to the cost of tuition. And if you kind of think about how it used to be, let’s say in 2000, that amount used to be only $680, which means, this amount has been almost 130 percent increased compared to that time.

Kirk: And that steep increase in fees? Well, Kim says it really started about 16 years ago, after the 2008 Great Recession.

Jeongeun Kim: When there is a recession, oftentimes states are trying to also cut their budgets, which makes them to go through the pressure of, okay, we need to identify which functions we are cutting and which function we need to continue supporting. And, unfortunately, I think higher education is one of the areas the state will consider cutting when there is an economic recession.

Kirk: What was really shocking to Kim in her research was that some schools were pretty open about what they were doing with these new designated recession-inspired fees. But they had all kinds of different names for them.

Jeongeun Kim: The names were something along the lines of “tuition contingency fee,” “economic recovery surcharge fee.” And basically some of the descriptions were, oh, the state cut the funding and we need to come up with somewhere to recoup the money, and you are going to pay for it, the students, which was very fascinating.

Jon: Fascinating, sure, Kirk. I mean, if you’re a researcher. Frustrating, definitely, if you’re a student — especially one from out of state.

Kirk: Yeah. And that’s because, after 2008, facing demographic shifts and shrinking student enrollment numbers, public colleges began fiercely competing for out-of-state students who they can charge much more in tuition and fees. So on campuses nationwide, to recruit more out-of-state students, colleges added more amenities. Think Chick-fil-As south of the Mason-Dixon line and Starbucks to the North. They began popping up in student centers, usually right next to the cafeteria.

Jeongeun Kim: These students tend to want to have, you know, those wholesome experience in college, which means, okay, like, you know, we want the lazy rivers or, you know, like, fancy facilities, which then, you know, drives the institutions to spend more on creating these resources and facilities. But, again, where do they find the money? That will be also coming from fees.

Kirk: Kim compares the rise in fees to cell phone bills with their roaming charges, or airline ticket pricing, with all of those add-ons and junk fees.

Jeongeun Kim: Yeah, higher ed is not much different, unfortunately. If you wanted to get your seats reserved, like, you pay extra. Like, almost the same thing. Even academic support at different academic level. So there would be fees for, like, lower-level or upper-level students, things like that. So that’s what I call nickel-and-dime fees.

Jon: There it is again, Kirk: nickel and dime.

Kirk: Many students at Northwest Missouri State told me they were, shall we say, annoyed by all of the nickel-and-diming going on. Students here have to pay $1,600 just for dining services, but many of them say they don’t really like the cafeteria food downstairs, so they eat the fast food from the Chick-fil-A upstairs. Here’s out-of-state student Kearsten Peterson from Nebraska and her friends Makenna Odagard from Iowa and Izzy Arias from Missouri. They had just eaten lunch at the fast-food joint.

Kearsten Peterson: I’m paying fees for things that I don’t even use or necessarily need, like my meal plan I’m paying how much for that I don’t use all the time? My textbook fees, I could probably go and order those textbooks for 40 bucks.

Makenna Odagard: You don’t even use the textbooks.

Kearsten Peterson: That’s true. I don’t even use the textbooks.

Izzy Arias: Yeah, and, you know, the biggest pisser for me was we’re paying 1,600 bucks a semester. Well, we don’t have to live on campus, some of us — freshmen do. But being on campus, you have to have a meal plan. And the cheapest one you can get is $1,600 for 10 meal times a week. I don’t eat downstairs. I haven’t eaten downstairs all semester.

Kirk: So you’re paying $1,600 for the meal plan, but you’re paying for Chick-fil-A upstairs.

Izzy Arias: Yes. Which comes with, like, the $500 dining dollars, but which is still, that’s all I use. What a waste.

Makenna Odagard: I mean, yeah, we pay them anyways. And they somewhat make sense, but at the same time, like, a little unnecessary. We had to pay $65 just to live in the LLC.

Kirk: LLC. That’s the living learning communities, which the university’s website says are designed to ease the transition to college life and provide support for personal and academic growth that encourages its mission of student success. Students here say they understand the institution’s stated goal, but …

Makenna Odagard: We’re already paying, like, $5,000 to live in the dorms. Why do we need to pay another $65? Like, you know, what is the point of some of those little things?

Kirk: And if you want to use your computer when school is not in session? Yep, you guessed it, Jon. There’s even a fee for that.

Joleigh Gann: Every summer you have to pay $75 just to keep it.

Kirk: That’s Joleigh Gann, a first-year student. She says that, taken together, all of these fees add up and they make the whole student experience feel much more transactional.

Joleigh Gann: I mean, I wish they would explain why they think we need the fees more because they kind of just give them to us and don’t really explain them. And then we have to pay them, because if we don’t, we don’t get to come here. I think it’s a little unfair that we don’t get to understand why we have them. Because a lot of people disagree with a lot of them. Like, there’s a $60 fee if you don’t check out correctly. Like even if you completely move out of your dorm, completely everything’s clean. There’s still a fee if you don’t correctly check out.

Kirk: Okay, so we did reach out to the university to respond to these complaints. A spokesperson declined to make anyone available to meet with me on campus, and then didn’t respond to several requests for comment.

Jon: A handful of colleges are listening to students and eliminating fees altogether.

Jason Reinohel is vice president for strategic enrollment management at the University of Dayton in Ohio.

Jason Reinohel: … and prior to that, I served in an assistant vice president role and working with my predecessor we uncovered some data around the effect of fees here at UD, and I was on kind of on point to help socialize the negative effects of fees on our students.

Kirk: Jason, what kind of fees did the University of Dayton have on its books?

Jason Reinohel: Fees for things like labs, course-based fees, extracurricular-related fees. And then we had, like, a graduation fee.

Kirk: And how much was that one?

Jason Reinohel: If I recall — it’s been a little while — if I recall it, it was, like, $75 to graduate.

Kirk: So what were the negative effects of all of these fees?

Jason Reinohel: You know something we did then and still do is we would do a survey of our graduating students and ask them about their experience. And the kind of the trigger moment for me in driving this change was the feedback we received in that survey. So we’re surveying students. Imagine the student is at a point where they’ve successfully completed their degree. They should be on Cloud Nine, right? They should be talking about how much they love UD and their faculty and all of this. And they did that. But then they also indicated how just frustrated and, you know, really ticked off they were about feeling nickel and dimed because these fees were surprises to them over and over.

Kirk: On average, the survey found students graduated having experienced 20 different fees.

Jason Reinohel: Nickel and dimed. It was their phrase. And so we captured that data, that qualitative data as well as some quantitative data. The average amount that our students were paying per year was $2,100 in these, you know, in a sense undisclosed fees.

Kirk: Undisclosed fees like what?

Jason Reinohel: You would have things like a School of Business student who, you know, would be taking a finance class and naturally, we’d want to get them a subscription to The Wall Street Journal. Well, you know, so you’d start class and then all of a sudden the faculty member would say, well, that’s going to cost you $50 extra for this semester, right? Like that type of thing. And it’s not it’s not like that student can really say no to that. Like they need that access, right? We took the quantitative and qualitative data and put that together and in a way to help drive change across the institution.

Kirk: So Reinhold says what the University of Dayton did was roll all of those fees into the overall cost of college.

Jason Reinohel: As a person flying on a plane, like, you just expect to be able to do certain things when you’re on the plane. And that’s how our students behave as well, right? They want to fully participate. In fact, we sell the experience that way. We want them to fully participate. But we used to nickel and dime them on the edges. And in a way that they felt, you know, frustrated about.

Kirk: Reinohel says this was part of a larger set of changes the university made to meet its commitment to improve price transparency.

Jason Reinohel: We removed these surprise fees and at the same time, we also articulated the net price for tuition that our family would pay across all four years. And so we created a financial aid offer that, you know, for most institutions is one year at a time.

Kirk: Right. And that’s the bait and switch we’ve been talking about this season. Your financial aid offer your first year probably doesn’t equal what it’s going to be your sophomore and then junior year. So you guarantee the same package throughout.

Jason Reinohel: Yes. Actually, we fixed the net tuition. And so the net tuition the family paid in year one was the same net tuition they paid in year two, three and four. Because really, ultimately, it’s not the aid package that matters. It’s actually what’s out of pocket to the family that matters. Right? So we fixed that. And actually in order to do that, we had to eliminate fees because these these are significant. The $2,100 per year, we couldn’t have that level of variance and make a complete commitment to our families about the cost of the degree.

Kirk: Sounds on the level. Right, Jon?

Jon: And it helped the university, too. Dayton’s first-year class sizes grew significantly after the change and to this day.

Kirk: But eliminating fees remains pretty rare in the land of higher ed. Economists say it’s a lot easier for private colleges like the University of Dayton to make these changes.

Jon: That’s because, again, private colleges are in control of their pricing strategies. But state legislatures set the tuition limits of public universities, and they say that’s why they have to jack up fees.

Kirk: So if you’re a student or family trying to navigate the wild world of university fees, or you’re just trying to save a buck, what can you do first? Do your research and look on colleges websites.

Jon: Yeah, some schools are better than others, but most public colleges will list their overall fees, although they won’t always give you a clear breakdown of what the fees are actually used for. So ask for it.

Kirk: And once you do that and you understand what exactly you’re paying for, there might be ways that your full-time status is calculated a little bit differently based on the types of classes you’re taking. So you might be able to reduce the total amount of fees you’re paying if you’re taking fewer credits in any particular semester. The key here, again, Jon, is to ask. And sometimes there may be some fees that you can opt out of if you’re not using, for example, the cafeteria or the gym.

Jon: So the bottom line is, pay attention. Read the fine print and know what you’re paying for. Then ask questions. Which is what we’ve said throughout this podcast. And we’ve given you places to look for the info. Kirk, sorry we can get you off the hook for that parking ticket.

Kirk: Don’t worry about it, man. I’m just going to expense it to your colleagues over at The Hechinger Report.

This is College Uncovered from GBH and The Hechinger Report. I’m Kirk Carapezza …

Jon: And I’m Jon Marcus. We’d love to hear from you. Send us an email to GBHNewsconnect@wgbh.org, and tell us what you want to know about how colleges really operate. And if you’re with a college or university, tell us what you think the public should know about higher Ed.

This episode was produced and written by Kirk Carapezza …

Kirk: … and Jon Marcus, and it was edited by Jeff Keating. Meg Woolhouse is our supervising editor. Ellen London is executive producer. Production assistant from Diane Adame.

Jon: Mixing and sound design by David Goodman and Gary Mott. All of our music is by college bands. Our theme song and original music is by Left Roman out of MIT. Mei He is our project manager and head of GBH podcasts is Devin Maverick Robins.

College Uncovered is a production of GBH News and The Hechinger Report and distributed by PRX.

It’s made possible by Lumina Foundation.

Thanks so much for listening.

The post College Uncovered, Season 2, Episode 7 appeared first on The Hechinger Report.

Student loans aren’t the only kind of university debt. Colleges and universities themselves have borrowed billions, mostly to keep building facilities they may or may not actually need as enrollment declines. Today, nearly 10 cents of every dollar in university budgets goes to pay the interest on institutional debt.

Colleges and universities now collectively owe around a quarter of a trillion dollars, according to the Moody’s bond-rating agency. The annual cost of servicing this debt is $48 billion, or $750 per student at public and $1,289 at private institutions. Several recent college closings were caused by unmanageable debt.

Much of the money has gone to new buildings, even at a time when some instruction is moving online and when existing buildings need billions worth of repairs. Some has been spent on amenities meant to attract more students as enrollment declines. But many colleges have simply ended up with more debt, even as they have fewer customers to pay for it.

Curious about how much your college owes, or the one that you’re considering attending. We’ll show you how to find out, at the end of this transcript.

“College Uncovered” is made possible by Lumina Foundation.

Listen to the whole series

Scroll to the end of this transcript to find out more about this topic, and for links to more information.

Jon: So, Kirk, how’s the food?

Kirk: It’s not bad, Jon. I got the salad and a slice of pizza. It’s a little greasy.

Jon: Yeah, I had the greasy pizza, too. We’re in the dining room at Marsh Hall. It’s a really nice new dorm with a fitness room, video consoles, pool tables, flat-screen TVs. And it’s next to a bike path with great views of a salt marsh. That’s all here on the campus at Salem State University.

Kirk: Salem, Massachusetts. Famous for all those witches.

Jon: That’s right. But I’ve got something even scarier for you, Kirk. We talk a lot about student loan debt, but universities also borrow an enormous amount of money to build places like where we’re sitting right now. This relatively small public university has been on a building boom with more to come. It’s built three dorms, a parking garage, and a brand-new fitness center. And while it was doing all that, its enrollment was declining. That’s the kind of higher education debt you don’t hear about as much. But students end up paying for this, too. Salem State pays $16 million a year just in interest on what it borrowed to build all this stuff.

Kirk: Wow. That’s crazy. On top of how expensive colleges are already. So all that institutional debt ends up putting more of a burden on students and families who have to pay for it.

This is College Uncovered, from GBH News and The Hechinger Report, a podcast pulling back the Ivy to reveal how colleges really work. I’m Kirk Carapezza, with GBH …

Jon: … and I’m Jon Marcus at The Hechinger Report.

Kirk: Colleges don’t want you to know how they operate. So GBH …

Jon: In collaboration with The Hechinger Report, is here to show you.

Today on the show: “Red Ink.”

So universities and colleges nationwide have kind of an edifice complex. Even though the number of students continues to go down, they keep building and building. And to do that, they’re borrowing tens of billions of dollars a year. The cost of paying that money back adds to the already high price of college.

Here at Salem State, students pay more than $3,300 per year, per student, to service the university’s debt, through dorm charges and other fees. We got that number from a faculty task force that’s been critical of the process. We talked to the university, too. It doesn’t dispute the number, but it says that students asked for these new facilities and that it’s constantly restructuring the debt to save money.

Students walking around the campus say they weren’t aware that part of what they’re paying goes to pay off the university’s debt.

Greg O’Connor: No, I was not.

Kirk: Greg O’Connor is a freshman and a member of the Student Government Association.

Greg O’Connor: Students aren’t really satisfied here with the dining. So the fact that they took out that much money to build the dorm halls and like, dining, still like a student concern, that’s that’s really wild to me. I didn’t know that.

Jon: Mackenzie Trainor was surprised to hear about this, too.

Mackenzie Trainor: My mom pays for me to be here. I love my mom a lot, so I mean. … My dorm’s disgusting. That’s a lot of money going into dorms that are not …

Kirk: Why is it disgusting?

Mackenzie Trainor: Just different issues. Like, my shower for some reason just gets dirty very easily. The rust is disgusting.

Jon: Is it one of these new dorms?

Mackenzie Trainor: Actually, yeah. Charlotte Forten Hall. I do love this school, but I mean, I’m recently having, like, financial aid issues. I think it’s interesting to find out some of the things about where funding’s going and where the money’s going.

Jon: It’s pretty quiet on the campus, except between classes, when students start crisscrossing the quad. Nearly all the students on this campus, 95 percent of them, qualify for financial aid. And those new dorms aren’t helping the half who commute.

Brendan Sheehan is a junior majoring in business and music. He runs a landscaping company with his brothers to help pay for the cost of going here.

Brendan Sheehan: Yeah, I just I just got off work.

Jon: What’s the music for? What are you planning to do?

Brendan Sheehan: Not a solid plan yet, but I just love music, so I’ve always stuck with that.

Kirk: Favorite band?

Brendan Sheehan: Favorite band? Oof, so many to choose from. But I got to go with the Red Hot Chili Peppers.

Kirk: All right,that’s a good choice.

Brendan Sheehan: Definitely.

Jon: New dorms are nice, but Sheehan said he’d be just as happy paying less for college and roughing it a little.

Brendan Sheehan: I could honestly, personally handle, you know, 5-foot-by-10-foot, you know, like, I’d be okay with living like that. I assume other people might think otherwise, but personally, I just, you know, I know that avoiding debt as much as possible is the goal.

Jon: But not necessarily for colleges and universities. And it isn’t only here at Salem State.

Kirk: Okay, so colleges and universities are borrowing vast sums to put up new dorms and student centers and other buildings, even as their enrollments decline. The actual amount of borrowed is estimated to be more than $32 billion a year in public bond debt. Most of it has gone to build new buildings that universities hope will attract students. And we’re not talking about buildings paid for by wealthy alums or giving campaigns. Forty percent of new construction on campuses is financed with debt.

Howard Bunsis: Most of the borrowing is for buildings, and the majority of those buildings are dorms. Universities have come to believe universally that dorms, that having the newest, fanciest wave pool, cool kitchens, cool whatever, are the answer in the competitive market to attract students to come to the university.

Jon: Howard Bunsis is a professor in the business school at Eastern Michigan University who studies colleges and debt. Servicing this debt now costs about 10 cents out of every dollar in university operating budgets. It’s also a major reason why a lot of small colleges are closing. We talked in Episode 4 about the large number of colleges closing these days. Many of them have more debt than assets. Ohio Valley University had $18 million in assets, but $30 million worth of liabilities when it shut down. The College of New Rochelle had $77 million worth of assets and $87 million in liabilities. I could go on and on. Cazenovia College in New York. Iowa Wesleyan. Birmingham Southern in Alabama. You get the idea. I asked Howard Bunsis what kind of colleges are doing this.

Howard Bunsis: Whether we’re talking about a flagship public, a regional public, a very wealthy private — it goes across the spectrum of universities.

Jon: So most of this is for dorms.

They figure that the proceeds they’re going to get, the revenue they’re going to generate from these dorms is going to more than cover it. And in addition, up until a year ago, interest rates in our country were very, very low. So they figured, you know what? It’s almost like free money — 3percent, 2 percent. So there was a lot of borrowing around the country by universities, no doubt. And a lot of it was for dorms, but a lot of it was generated by the low interest rates. Now interest rates are not so low anymore.

Jon: Let’s be clear, though. Just like people who have a mortgage, a lot of colleges can handle the debt, right?

Howard Bunsis: Well, let’s start at the top: flagship public universities. They have absolutely no trouble borrowing money and paying it back. They have tuition coming in. They have grants and contracts and all the research they do. They have state appropriations. They have a lot of people donating money. They have such a wonderfully diverse revenue source. They’re not going to have any trouble.

Jon: Okay. But but what about other schools like Eastern Michigan?

Howard Bunsis: You come to a place where I teach, a regional public university. Well, the grants and contracts aren’t that great. There’s not that much money coming in from gifts. So they’re relying on tuition revenue and the state appropriation. So it’s a little more problematic.

Jon: Should prospective students be wary about going to small, tuition dependent private colleges that have a lot of debt?

Howard Bunsis: The small private university that’s borrowing a lot of money, and they have one revenue source that I think is — can I use the word problematical? Is that is that a fair word? I would be very wary of a private university that gets more than 80 percent of its revenue from tuition only and is borrowing a lot of money.

Jon: So how do you tell if the college you’re considering has too much debt?

Howard Bunsis: One of my pet peeves, and [for] transparency, I think every university that takes any federal money, including a private university that gets federal money for student loans, should put their audited statements on their website for people to see. Because remember, with debt, it’s not like you have to write a check. Like when you borrow. If you borrow $200,000 in your mortgage, you don’t have to write a $200,000 check tomorrow. You have to write a monthly check. And so that’s why looking at the total cash, the two investments, that ratio should be above one.

Jon: That sounds complicated, but but you’re saying that if there’s a problem, it’s going to stick out, right?

Howard Bunsis: So I looked at this in college in West Virginia, which went under. Basically they had cash and investments of $6 million and debt of $28 million, and they had negative cash flows. So that’s troubling.

Jon: Yeah. You’re talking about Alderson Broaddus University, which closed last year just a few days before the start of the school year. It couldn’t even pay its utility bills.

Howard Bunsis: The debt issue that we’re talking about is really about small privates that put all their eggs in one basket, borrowed too much money to build dorms. The people didn’t come. The enrollment didn’t increase. The cash flows were not generated. But the principal has to be paid. The interest has to be paid.

Kirk: Back at Salem State, it was concerned faculty who took the initiative and investigated all the debt the university took on to build its new dorms, gym and that dining hall with the greasy pizza. Joanna Gonsalves is a professor of psychology, and she says it was a risky strategy from the very start.

Joanna Gonsalves: That gamble wasn’t good, because, more and more, our campuses, our students can’t afford that. It was the gamble that having those beautiful, campus facilities make our campus appealing to somebody from New Hampshire, Rhode Island, California. That really, actually never came to pass.

Jon: And yet now everybody’s paying for it.

Joanna Gonsalves: Yeah, everybody’s paying for it.

Jon: So we’ve been talking about shiny new buildings and how colleges borrow to pay for them. But that new state-of-the-art computer science building also comes at the cost of other projects and priorities. Even as they take on more debt to put up new buildings, some colleges are neglecting their existing infrastructure. Universities now have — listen to this, Kirk — $112 billion worth of deferred maintenance and repairs.

Kirk: That’s a lot of money. And I’m still thinking about the gross dorm rooms and the antiquated bathrooms or heating systems on college campuses. The things you know you don’t see on a college brochure.

Jon: Yeah. So analysts say it’s a maintenance backlog that’s now become impossible to catch up with. It means that the condition of some buildings is getting really bad.

Alice Roberts Davis: Generally what happens is, as buildings age, we should go in and replace certain aspects — plumbing, roof, heating, electrical, mechanical. All those systems need to be maintained and replaced over time. And if we don’t have the funding to do that, that becomes an item of deferred maintenance. And as those things go on without replacement, they become more critical, at risk for failure.

Kirk: That’s the person with the very tough job of overseeing this issue on one of America’s biggest campuses.

Alice Roberts Davis: I am Alice Roberts Davis. I am vice president for university services at the University of Minnesota. We have about 1,000 buildings, and more than half of our buildings are more than 50 years old. We have a number of buildings that are more than 100 years old. And so as you think about your own home and what types of things need to be repaired in your own home, if you had a home that was 50, 60 or 70 years old, you would definitely need to replace the roof. You need to replace the windows and probably work with the foundation or plumbing. Some sort of structural work would probably be necessary in our university. Buildings are no different. All of those things need to be done on a regular cadence.

Kirk: But often they haven’t been. This can affect the average college experience. These are not the buildings that gets showcased during a college tour, or when the college is trying to make a good first impression and get you the student to enroll.

Alice Roberts Davis: They want it to look stately. They want it to look old. They want it to look like those universities back east that have those long-tenured buildings and look like great thinkers have paced those corridors. And we want them to have that original character, but that costs money for us to maintain them in a way that makes them continue to be functional.

Jon: But Davis says there’s more to this than pretty buildings.

Alice Roberts Davis: Students who have had a great K-through-12 experience with wonderful facilities come to our university, and seeing something that feels like a step backward as far as facilities go — they may be looking at a lab that is the same lab that their mom and dad used, versus something that’s really state of the art in their in their high school. When that happens, they tend to look at surrounding states, other universities, other options that they may have. And what we find is when they go to those other schools, in other states, they tend to form professional and personal relationships that cause them to stay. That’s a long-term workforce issue for our state.

Jon: The condition of the campus really has a far-reaching impact. What are some other ways that it matters? I mean, schools send a message not only to students, but to faculty with the quality of their infrastructure.

Alice Roberts Davis: It’s so important that we attract the best faculty so that we can get the best students here. And when faculty assess the facilities and see that they may or may not be able to get the grant funding that they need because of the facilities that they’re being offered, they make really difficult decisions that may or may not include our university.

Kirk: Okay. So what should you, the consumer, look for when you visit a college campus? Here are some ideas.

Alice Roberts Davis: I think the parents should look at what the child’s major is. They should be thinking about what type of facility they need. What equipment is there that will help prepare them for their workforce of the future? Or do they have the faculty there that can prepare them for the workforce that they plan to enter?

Jon: So, to recap, wander around to campus when the official tour is over and look for yourself, especially at the buildings where you’re likely to take labs or classes. Next, check out the college’s ratio of assets to liabilities. That’s a way to understand whether a college might have too much debt.

Kirk: That sounds like as much fun as doing your taxes, Jon.

Jon: Well, none of this is fun, right? But there are tools that make it easy, and you’ll find them linked from the landing page for this episode. They’ll take you to universities’ publicly required financial documents, which summarize these numbers pretty well.

Kirk: This is College Uncovered. I’m Kirk Carapezza from GBH …

Jon: … and I’m Jon Marcus from The Hechinger Report. Be sure to keep listening to future episodes to hear more about what colleges and universities don’t teach you.

This episode was produced and written by Kirk …

Kirk: … and Jon, and it was edited by Jeff Keating. Meg Woolhouse is our supervising editor and Ellen London is executive producer.

Jon: Mixing and sound design by David Goodman and Gary Mott.

Kirk: We had production assistance from Diane Adame.

Jon: Theme song and original music by Left Roman out of MIT. Mei He is our project manager and head of GBH podcasts is Devin Maverick Robins.

Kirk: College Uncovered is a production of GBH News and The Hechinger Report and distributed by PRX. It’s made possible by Lumina Foundation. Thanks so much for listening.

Kirk: Okay, now we’re at the sundae bar. Where are you going with?

Jon: Well, cookies and cream. What else would you go with?

Kirk: Cookie dough looks good. Or mint chocolate chip?

The post College Uncovered, Season 2, Episode 6 appeared first on The Hechinger Report.

To boost enrollment and meet workforce needs, many states are offering free community college programs. It’s a well-intentioned (and bipartisan) idea to help people get the credentials they need, and states build their supply of college-educated workers.

But does free really mean free? Do these programs effectively bring students back to college? And does saying something’s free diminish its value?

Research shows that free college has had some effect, but not as much as you might think.

It doesn’t mean that students still don’t have to pay for food, rent, books, supplies, transportation and other living costs, which at community colleges often cost more than taking classes. That can stop them from taking states up on the offer. And private colleges and universities vying for the same students quietly oppose having to compete with free.

We’ll tell you what you need to know about free college. You’ll also find a searchable database of free college programs at the end of this transcript.

“College Uncovered” is made possible by Lumina Foundation.

Listen to the whole series

Scroll to the end of this transcript to find out more about this topic, and for links to more information.

Kirk: Can we get a Guinness and a pint of Jack’s Abbey?

Bartender: You got it.

Kirk: Thanks.

Jon. What are we doing? I thought we were podcasting.

Kirk: We are, Jon, but we’re also grabbing a pint at a local bar — cheers! — and getting some free snacks.

Jon: I like free. Hey — wouldn’t it be great if college was free?

Jack Freer: Yeah, not everyone is born with the same economic opportunities.

Shane Garrity: Yeah, college is a time where you can make so many friends, so many connections that can carry you forward into your personal and professional life.

Lila Cardillo: I think making college, like, ridiculously expensive, just, you know, doesn’t qualify a lot of people for entering certain professions. And just so it makes the wealth divide greater.

Kirk: That’s Jack Freer, Shane Garrity, and Lila Cardillo.

I mean, politically speaking, Jon, when it comes to college, perhaps nothing is more popular than free. And, again, that’s politically speaking.

Jon: Yeah. Of course, political talk is also free, or at least cheap. And if you stand in front of a group of Americans at, say, a bar like this one and say, ‘Hey, maybe everybody doesn’t need a college degree,’ most of the bar will not their heads and probably agree with you.

Kirk: But then if you say, ‘Yo, we all have to agree that young people need more than a high school degree to get a good job’ — nowadays, everybody at the bar will also not their head in agreement.

Jon: That’s why a lot of states are ending up in the middle. They’re making community college free.

Kirk: So where do I sign up? I love free stuff — like these bar snacks. But is free college really free? You might be surprised to hear the answer.

Kirk: This is College Uncovered, a podcast pulling back the ivy to reveal how colleges really work.

And we should note here, Jon, that our little podcast is already free, as they say, wherever you get your podcasts.

Jon: Yeah, it is, but it’s also priceless, Kirk. I’m Jon Marcus at The Hechinger Report …

Kirk: … and I’m Kirk Carapezza with GBH. Colleges don’t want you to know how they operate. So GBH …

Jon: … in collaboration with The Hechinger Report, is here to show you.

Okay, so the number of people in the U.S. with some college credit, but no degree or certificate to show for it — that number keeps growing. It’s now north of 40 million, the highest that it’s ever been. And since the pandemic, hundreds of thousands more students have dropped out, most of them low income or the first in their families to go to college. That’s the idea behind free community college. It’s a chance to woo those students back.

Kirk: Right. More states are offering free community college. Two thirds of states now have some form of free, from Michigan to New Mexico, Rhode Island to Oregon. The details differ from state to state, but free college has widespread support.

Community colleges like it because they’re facing an enrollment plunge. Businesses like it to meet their need for skilled workers. And it’s just plain good for students, who see their lifetime earnings rise. Or that’s the thinking. But it’s not quite so simple.

So do these new programs help students graduate on time and with less debt? You might be surprised to learn that free college isn’t as effective at helping students finish college as you’d think.

Today on the show: ‘The Real Cost of Free.’

I went over to Bunker Hill Community College here in Boston to meet Magno Garcia. Since he graduated from high school, Garcia has enrolled in Bunker Hill three times off and on, commuting from his home in nearby Chelsea. Back then, Garcia worked long hours in retail and as an air-conditioner technician so he could avoid student loan debt. He wanted a degree in accounting so he could move up to management at the HVAC company. But the first two times he enrolled, he ran out of cash, time and energy.

Magno Garcia: I wasn’t really motivated, so it was, like, the worst idea, because I paid for everything out of pocket.

Kirk: What do you think you needed at the time?

Magno Garcia: Guidance. I never felt like I had someone that was, like, ‘Hey, I’m here to help.’

Kirk: Overwhelmed, Garcia dropped out twice to put food on the table and pay rent. He kept working retail. He was also devoting time to a personal passion: producing his own music videos on YouTube. Now, at 34 years old, Garcia is back at Bunker Hill. And, Jon, guess what drew him back to college?

Jon: Let me guess. Was it because it was free?

Kirk: Indeed it was. Massachusetts recently began offering free community college for anyone over the age of 25 without a degree.

Magno Garcia: I’m taking advantage of that.

Kirk: Massachusetts education officials say returning students like Garcia are responsible for the first public college enrollment increase in nine years. Enrollment in public four-year colleges slowed, but community college enrollment in Massachusetts rose by 8 percent last year. All 15 community college campuses, including Bunker Hill, saw a spike. But that’s not necessarily the full story.

Davis Jenkins: It’s good news in that there’s been some stabilization, but, overall, you know, enrollment’s down.

Jon: Davis Jenkins studies community colleges at Columbia University. Despite the recent uptick, Jenkins points out that community college enrollment in Massachusetts is actually down nearly 40 percent since 2014. It’s also down nationwide. The number of community college students across the country dropped nearly 30 percent over the last 10 years.

Davis Jenkins: Community college enrollment was hit hardest during Covid, and it had been dropping for a decade before that.

Jon: To get more students back in classrooms, some political leaders want to expand free community college to all state residents, regardless of age.

But free doesn’t always work out for students. Because, while, yes, removing financial barriers is a good thing, many still can’t afford to stop working and focus on their studies. So they don’t graduate. While federal data doesn’t tell us the racial makeup of the 40 million Americans with some college and no degree, researchers say they’re likely to be more diverse, the first in their families to go to college and from low-income backgrounds, compared to their peers who did graduate.

Amanda Fernandez: We certainly have a long, long way to go — in particular, for Latino students who still to this day are experiencing the ramifications of an inequitable education, and in particular during the pandemic, when these issues were exacerbated.

Kirk: Amanda Fernandez is CEO of Latinos for Education. She says free community college signals progress. But a poll commissioned by Latinos for education and the nonprofit Mass., Inc. finds disparities in attitudes about going to college among people from different racial and ethnic backgrounds. And Latino parents were the least likely to say their child participated in college prep programs. Another survey by The Chronicle of Higher Education finds Latinos with a high school degree are more likely to be unsure how to enroll and how to pay for college.

So I asked Amanda Fernandez: Is there an information gap?

Amanda Fernandez: It’s a communication gap and it’s a belief gap. And that’s where I think it’s actually lower-hanging fruit. Because our families want their children to go to college, but they don’t have the information about how to even get into an early college program, how to get into a vocational education program. And so, therefore, their students don’t believe or their children don’t believe that they can access higher education and therefore they lose interest.

Kirk: That interest is so important, right? Because in many Latino communities, this is often a family decision.

Amanda Fernandez: Our Latino families are having conversations with their kids about, ‘What are you going to do after high school?’ But they’re not confident in being able to say, ‘You will go to college because we know how to access financial aid, we know how to apply for it.’

Kirk: Does taxpayer support for free college programs help students access college, and — more importantly — graduate?

Amanda Fernandez: I do believe some of that scholarship money does go to other supports that are needed for persistence in the community college space. But, again, you have to think about the longer term and the realities of, you know, when the average age of our community college students is around 27 years old and they have lives and they have to support their own families and children and extended families, you have to support the continued persistence.

Kirk: Sociologist Sara Goldrick-Rab agrees. Goldrick Rab is a senior fellow at Education Northwest, a nonprofit organization in Portland, Oregon. She’s author of “Paying the Price: College Costs, Financial Aid and the Betrayal of the American Dream.” And she’s a longtime advocate for free community college programs.

Sara Goldrick-Rab: For 20 years, my research has suggested that this is a very viable part of the solution, and that’s what I’d call it. I’d call it part of the solution.

Kirk: She says free community college will help close some of these gaps, but it’s not a panacea.

Sara Goldrick-Rab: It’s not meant to be all things. It’s not meant to solve every problem around college affordability, but it’s very clear that it’s targeted to the people who most need college to be affordable. Those are the people who right now are not going at all.

Jon: Goldrick-Rab says making college tuition free is not enough, because going to college costs much more than just tuition. Even if politicians do promote free college as the answer.

Sara Goldrick-Rab: They’re not accounting for the full range of costs. The number one college affordability issue in this country is housing. That’s what people are grappling with. And we’re not talking about that because most people don’t live on campus, for example.

Jon: Kirk, that’s one of the issues with these free programs. It’s not always clear what’s covered. For example, some provide funding for living expenses, but most of them do not.

The total cost of attending college includes food, housing, books, supplies, health care, transportation and a bunch of other costs. In fact, non-tuition expenses are the majority of the cost in public higher education. And if you want to find the true cost of attendance from a college, good luck, because that’s based on numbers provided by the colleges. They report them to the federal government. But they’re just estimates for everything except tuition and fees. And those estimates — they’re often grossly incorrect.

So for all of these reasons, supporters of free college say funneling everyone into a system where you’re supposed to graduate within two or four years is the wrong approach. It will only make educational inequities worse.

Kirk: And they say free community college changes who’s going to college. And it helps colleges reach students who will get the biggest return on investment.

Not everyone agrees with that logic, though, Jon. I went to Nashville, Tennessee, to check out the free college program there firsthand. Former Gov. Bill Haslam told me he had made the successful push for free community college because Tennessee employers need well-trained workers.

Bill Haslam: We had looked out at the state and realized that of all the jobs are going to exist in Tennessee in 2025, 55 percent of them would require a degree or certificate beyond high school.

Kirk: It was all about churning out more qualified workers and attracting companies to locate or relocate there. At the time Haslam said this, only a third of Tennessee’s population held a degree or certificate, so Haslam said he wanted to do something that would shock the system and then get people to think:

Bill Haslam: ‘Hey, I never thought that I would go to school, but maybe I will.’ If you haven’t grown up with the thought that college is a real possibility for you, then it’s not something talked about at the dinner table. It’s not on the radar screen.

Kirk: And it worked. At first.

Community college enrollments spiked 5 percent the first year, with thousands of low-income students taking up the offer. Students like Eric Bihembo, who immigrated from Uganda as a teen, signed up.

Eric Bihembo: College wasn’t on my radar.

Kirk: Did you think it was too good to be true?

Eric Bihembo: It was too good to be true. I mean, free money where I could go and get a free education. It was overwhelming. At the same time, I just wanted to check it out.

Kirk: Going from Uganda to Nashville, was there a bit of a culture shock?

Eric Bihembo: We don’t have these big buildings where you can stand and compare yourself and see how small you are.

[‘Pomp and Circumstance,’ from the Tennessee State commencement ceremony]

Kirk: In the end, Bihembo graduated from community college in Nashville and then completed a Tennessee Highway Patrol cadet program.

Where do you see yourself in 10 or 20 years?

Eric Bihembo: My dream job is one day to work with the FBI doing cybersecurity. But I want to start as a police officer to pick up all the experience and be able to apply it in the in the bigger world.

Kirk: Researchers say Bihembo, who graduated in two years, is the exception. Because while more students enrolled in Tennessee’s community colleges, it didn’t mean a higher percentage graduated.

Jennifer Freeman: It boosts enrollments at first, but those people don’t necessarily stay in school.

Jon: Jennifer Freeman is with the nonprofit Jobs for the Future. Turns out, even though most community college students say their goal is to earn a degree, they usually don’t.

Only one in five adults who re-enrolled in Tennessee’s free college program graduated after three years.

To retain students, Freeman suggests improving support systems and tailoring offerings to students career goals. Otherwise …

Jennifer Freeman: … people go back and then they kind of go back to the same college format, structure that didn’t work for them in the first place.

Jon: Columbia’s Davis Jenkins agrees. He says, sure, free helps, but two-year schools will ultimately need to improve their product.

Davis Jenkins: Community colleges. I love them, but they generally don’t treat adults well. They’re going to have to move toward more of a 24-seven advising. They’re going to have to schedule the courses when students need them, not Tuesday through Thursday between 10 and 1, when the professors want to teach.

Jon: Sara Goldrick-Rab, on the other hand, defends these programs, because she says no-cost college broadens access and benefits society. She says the current financial aid system, which requires filling out complicated forms and figuring out formulas to calculate how much college will cost, is an obstacle for too many students.

Sara Goldrick-Rab: Things that knock out a given cost, like tuition, are more promising than things that are predicated on jumping through a bunch of hoops.

Kirk: And advocates say these programs help students like Rebecca Beaucher in Massachusetts. At 45, Beaucher returned to college last fall thanks to the state’s new free college program. Beaucher started college 20 years ago, but quickly dropped out because working full time as an IT analyst and parenting spread her too thin. Going back wasn’t easy, either.

Rebecca Beaucher: I think I was intimidated. You know, it had been so long since I had been in a class environment.

Kirk: She says the free program was the enticement she needed to re-enroll at Northern Essex Community College. She recalls when she heard the news that the program passed in the state’s budget.

Rebecca Beaucher: My heart just dropped and I immediately burst into tears and I sent a text to my husband, like, this is it. Game on. I’m finally getting my degree. I’m just, I’m going for it. I can’t believe this finally happened.

Kirk: This year, Bouchet is taking business classes online and says her goal is to earn her doctorate someday.

Rebecca Beaucher: On my headstone I want it to say, ‘Dr. Rebecca Beaucher.’ I understand that I’m 45, and I may get that when I’m 90. And I am absolutely okay with this.

Jon: So free college is a mixed bag. Some students might only be interested in taking a few classes to brush up their skills. Others might want to get a doctorate someday. But we do know the vast majority are hoping for a four-year degree.

Surveys show more than 80 percent of community college students aspire to earn a bachelor’s degree. Only a small percentage do, though — just about 13 percent, even within six years. That’s according to the U.S. Department of Education. And those rates are even lower for low-income, male, Black and Hispanic students.

Kirk: Yeah. Economists like Josh Goodman at Boston University say there are lots of reasons why low-income students might be better served if they went straight to a four-year college.

Josh Goodman: It’s a combination of things. One is we know the community colleges are less well funded per student than a four-year institution, so they have fewer resources. [Students] are with peers who are academically weaker. And that may have an influence on their success in their own coursework. And though many students plan to start at a community college and then transfer to the four-year sector, many of the students who plan to do that don’t end up succeeding, either because they misunderstand that transfer process or because the alignment between their community college coursework and the requirements of the four-year institutions is not always great.

Kirk: We have a whole episode just about that topic from our first season. It’s called ‘The Transfer Trap,’ so be sure to check it out.

Jon: Okay, so, Kirk, I guess the old saying there’s no such thing as a free lunch — that still holds.

Kirk: Yeah. So here are a few key takeaways from this episode.

One: Do your research. Make sure you’re enrolling in a free program that meets your career and personal goals.

Two: Ask about retention and graduation rates. Because if nobody graduates, then free doesn’t really mean anything.

And three: If your aim is to earn a bachelor’s degree someday, ask whether the credits you earn will even transfer and if they’ll transfer to your major. Because while most community college students say they want to earn a four-year degree, few do so within six years, and the rate is even lower for first-generation, low-income, Black and Latino students like Magno Garcia.

Back at Bunker Hill. Garcia told me the new free community college program for adults there renewed his hope to earn a degree.

Magno Garcia: Third time’s a charm. I actually feel very confident saying that I will graduate.

Kirk: Garcia has found a support network on Bunker Hill’s campus through a program designed for men of color. That’s another good takeaway, Jon: Find a support network on campus.

Garcia is now working as a social worker at a high school while wrapping up his associate degree, and he switched his major from accounting to psychology.

Magno Garcia: It made a huge difference. I was enjoying my classes. The subject matters were more interesting to me than, you know, crunching in numbers.

Kirk: This fall, he plans to transfer to a four-year university and pursue a bachelor’s degree so he can become a teacher or a school counselor.

This is College Uncovered from GBH and The Hechinger Report. I’m Kirk Carapezza …

Jon: … and I’m Jon Marcus. We’d love to hear from you. Send us an email to gbhnewsconnect@wgbh.org. And tell us what you want to know about how colleges really operate. And if you’re with a college or university. Tell us what you think the public should know about higher ed.

This episode is produced and written by Kirk Carapezza …

Kirk: … and Jon Marcus, and it was edited by Jeff Keating. Meg Woolhouse is supervising editor. Ellen London is executive producer. Mixing and sound design by David Goodman and Gary Mott. We had production assistants from Diane Adame.

Theme song and original music by Left Roman out of MIT, and all of our music is by college bands.

Mei He is our project manager, and head of GBH podcasts is Devin Maverick Robins.

College Uncovered is a production of GBH News and The Hechinger Report and distributed by PRX.

It’s made possible by Lumina Foundation.

Thank you so much for listening.

The post College Uncovered, Season 2, Episode 5 appeared first on The Hechinger Report.

Okay, so you’re going to college. But will the college you pick still have its lights on by the time you get to graduation?

It’s a question more and more families are asking as universities and colleges face financial and enrollment challenges, close or merge. We’ll tell you what schools are doing to stay alive, what happens to students when they shut down and how to check on the financial health of colleges.

Listen to the whole series

Scroll to the end of this transcript to find out more about this topic, and for links to more information.

Jon: This is College Uncovered. I’m Jon Marcus with The Hechinger Report …

Kirk: And I’m Kirk Carapezza with GBH. We’re getting out of our Boston studio to start today’s episode and heading to the nearby town of Brookline, Massachusetts.

Jon: Nice neighborhood up here, huh, Kirk?

Kirk: Beautiful view up here, Jon. Is this where you live?

Jon: No, I do not. This is Fisher Hill. It’s a really swanky neighborhood. It was designed by Frederick Law Olmsted, the guy that laid out Central Park. The inventor of the smallpox inoculation lived up here. So did search Serge Koussevitzky, the conductor of the Boston Symphony. These mansions around here are some of the best 19^th-century architecture you can find. I saw one listed this morning, Kirk, for just a little over $8 million.

Kirk: Is there a pool?

Jon: Yeah. Well, one thing apparently this neighborhood didn’t need was college.

Kirk: That’s right. There used to be a college here. It was called Newbury College, and it closed five years ago. It had $11 million worth of debt and a dwindling number of students. It lost $7 million just in its last year. When it closed, the campus was sold for $34 million. So, Jon, the real estate that we’re standing on right now, it was worth more than the actual college.

Jon: That’s right. And some of it is now being transformed into this giant luxury elderly housing complex. You can hear it going up across the street.

Kirk: That’s right. And they converted this part over here, over your shoulder, it looks like, into a dog park.

Jon: Yeah, a dog park where rich people walk their very expensive dogs.

Kirk: Dogs that have Instagram accounts, we found out.

Your dog is on Instagram?

Dog walker: Yup. His name is Bennie in Boston with an “-ie.”

Kirk: Bennie in Boston is a Cockapoo, by the way.

Okay, so a lot of colleges are closing — more of them in Massachusetts than in any other state. But it’s happening all over the country, too. These days, among the things you need to know before you pick a college is whether it will even stay in business long enough for you to graduate. So how do you know whether your school might close? We’ll tell you how to find out.

A lot of colleges are closing around here, and in other parts of the country, hit hard by an enrollment decline. Massachusetts has seen nine nonprofit colleges close or merge since 2016, giving it the rather dubious honor of being first in the nation for nonprofit college closings.

Just a few miles away from Fisher Hill in Newton, Massachusetts, Mount Ida College closed suddenly in 2018. It was the spring, and the abrupt decision, delivered to the campus community in an email, would leave hundreds of students in debt and in limbo for years.

Like Newbury College, Mount Ida was out of cash and out of luck. But at least Newbury gave students a year’s notice about its closure. Mount Ida’s dirty little secret was that to get more students in seats, it had been discounting its tuition heavily. Very few students were paying the sticker price or even close to it. But like a lot of small private colleges here in New England and across the country, Mount Ida’s board seemed to assume the college was just one more marketing campaign away from turning it all around.

Jon: And it wasn’t?

Kirk: No, Jon, it was not.

Newscaster: ‘It’s WGBH’s morning edition. I’m Joe Mathieu. Under a deal announced last week, Mount Ida will shut down. UMass will acquire its campus.’

Kirk: In public hearings, one by one, I heard Mount Ida students and their parents blame administrators for the school’s sudden closure.

Lisa McLean: Someone needs to be held accountable and do what’s right for these students.

Kirk: Lisa McLean said Mount Ida’s president had told parents like her that the college failed because it offered tuition discounts it couldn’t afford. The college was basically cutting the cost to students by more than half.

Lisa McLean: If this is the case, why are they being offered? Why are you preying on our children? Luring them to come to Mount Ida with this nonexistent money?

Jon: Mount Ida is definitely part of a bigger trend, one that’s being felt around the country. At the time, junior Jared Maimon was working part time as a campus tour guide — not at Mount Ida, but 50 miles southwest at another small private college, Nichols College, in Dudley, Massachusetts. Maimon says he didn’t start thinking about the financial challenges of small colleges like Nichols until Mount Ida closed abruptly.

Jared Maimon: And that’s when it kind of popped into my head and I was, like, ‘Oh, man, like, is this something that could happen to us?’

Jon: And he started hearing prospective students and their parents talking about the same things on the campus tours he gave. They started asking him not just about food, dorms and classes, but about whether his college would be around long enough for them to graduate.

Kirk: And, Jon, that’s also when, for the first time, I began getting that question at our higher ed desk. Stressed-out parents started calling me, wanting to know if the colleges they were considering for their kids would still be open in four years.

So how do you know? There’s no surefire way to know whether college is at risk of shutting down. But there are a few things you can look for.

Over the past 20 years, more than 1,900 colleges have closed. About 80 percent of them were for-profits. But the other 20 percent were private nonprofits like Newbury and Mount Ida. That’s according to an analysis by the State Higher Education Executive Officers Association, which tracks these things.

Jon: And last year, 2023, was a record year, with about 80 colleges closing, many of them small liberal arts colleges with enrollments around 1,000 students or less.

Kirk: Eighty! Okay, that’s a lot of colleges — I mean, at least six a month. And experts are predicting many, many more will follow as college enrollment problems are getting worse.

Jon: That’s right, because the number of high school graduates is shrinking and the percentage of those who do graduate high school going directly to college keeps falling. Meanwhile, compared to 40 years ago, college costs have more than doubled. So it makes sense that only one in three American adults now says a degree is worth the cost.

All of these headwinds are about to push a lot of colleges straight off a demographic cliff.

So many colleges have closed recently that there’s even an app to tell you whether your college is on the way up.

Kirk: What? Come on. Are you kidding me?

Jon: Nope. A former administrator at Westminster College in Missouri is now a researcher and founder of something called College Viability. It’s an app that collects publicly available data so that you can compare and contrast colleges across the country.

Kirk: Come on. Will you text me that?

Jon: Sure. Hold on. It’s a little clunky and it’s not exactly scientific. It simply shares the characteristics of colleges that might be financially shaky. But the fact that it even exists, Kirk, proves there’s demand for this kind of information.

Kirk: Definitely. Well, rather than relying on this app. I sat down with Michael Horn. Horn thinks and writes about college closures all the time. He’s the co-founder of the Clayton Christensen Institute, a research outfit that has long predicted lots of colleges would close because the enrollment and tuition numbers simply don’t add up. Sitting in his living room, looking back on 2023, Horn told me that he and his research team were right. A ton of schools did close.

So I asked him: What’s going on?

Michael Horn: Well, I think there’s a few things going on. One, the pandemic forestalled, actually, a lot of colleges from closing, because they were going to close, but then all these federal dollars comes in and basically saves them. And then we’ve got a bunch of colleges that need to close. Structurally, they’re not sound. And 2023, the federal money is gone. They start to collapse.

Kirk: How many schools are we talking about?

Michael Horn: Yeah, it was over one a month last year, in 2023. And the pace is increasing. Right? And this isn’t even counting the for-profit schools that closed. Higher ed has never seen anything like this.

Kirk: Michael, do you predict we’ll see more schools shut down in 2024?

Michael Horn: I think the number’s going to go up and up and up. The real cliff is going to start coming in about two years. So we’ve got a little bit of time. Maybe there was pent-up colleges that needed to close, and so maybe it’ll be about the same. I think at least 20, 25 schools will close, and that doesn’t count the mergers. It’s not going to be less.

Kirk: You’re talking about 2026, when we’ll see the number of 18-year-olds drop precipitously because no one was having babies in 2008, during the Great Recession.

Michael Horn: Exactly. Everyone stopped having babies in 2008. And generally, in the past, after recessions, people started having babies again. That didn’t happen this time, and so we don’t see a rebound. And that’s why a lot of people don’t like the word cliff. They like slide, or something like that — something more gradual. But that’s why people call it a cliff, because it doesn’t rebound.

Kirk: If I’m a prospective student — because, you know, we’re very consumer focused on our podcast — how do I know whether the school that I choose will still be open, will still have its lights on in four years? You’re shaking your head.

Michael Horn: It’s the greatest question, because there’s just not great information for students and families. Everyone asks me this question: ‘How do I know?’ And it’s really hard to tell them. I think what I would do is, frankly, look at a few sources of information. Number one, has enrollment been dropping over the last 10 years? I wouldn’t look in just the last year or two. I would look over a decade. Number two, is enrollment below a thousand students? If so, and the school doesn’t have a really strong name brand, I’d be really worried. And number three, can I look at some historical lists? You know, there’s databases out there about schools that are struggling. Take a look at them and see, was this a school that was already on life support before the pandemic? And if so, I’d be really nervous if it’s hitting on those other two as well.

Kirk: But even those things, there’s no guarantee, right? You think about schools like Hampshire College, right, where Ken Burns has swept in and raised a ton of money to keep that school afloat. It hits all of those targets that you just mentioned, but it’s still open.

Michael Horn: Yeah, absolutely. Look, there are colleges that have basically hit the cliff and then rebounded, right? There’s Hampshire, there’s Sweet Briar College — alumni saved it. Those are schools with strong brands. And so I might say, give them a chance. Frankly, the schools that are closing aren’t generally ones we’ve heard of.

Kirk: You mentioned you get this question all the time. I remember when Mount Ida College shut down here in Newton, people started calling me because they heard me on the radio reporting this, and they said, ‘I’m thinking about sending my kid to this school. Is it still going to be open?’ Do you get the same calls?

Michael Horn: Yeah, because you’re the expert, right? You’re the one, right? Well, I mean, that may be scary to both of us, but, like, you’re the one reporting on this, you’re seeing the numbers, you’re seeing the trend, you’re seeing, frankly, the struggles that students are then having as a college closes on them. Right? They’re trying to transfer credits. They’re trying to find a school that will accept them. They’re trying to find a comparable school that has a major that will work for them. The Department of Education will say, ‘Oh, schools have lots of, you know, brothers and sisters out there you can easily transfer to.’ But if you’re a student in the soup, so to speak, you’re not seeing that big picture. And so it’s scary.

Kirk: And, Jon, there is one other potential red flag. Michael Horn did not mention at first.

Jon: Yeah? What’s that?

Kirk: Well, in the wake of Mount Ida, education officials in Massachusetts created a so-called financial stress test for colleges like the one the federal government launched for banks after the 2008 recession. This was the first of its kind in the country, and it was really controversial. But the idea was to alert students and their parents if a college was in financial trouble.

At the time, the higher education lobby pushed back on the plan. They said no one stress test fits all.

Barbara Brittingham was then head of the New England Association of Schools and Colleges. That’s the regional accrediting body. She told me colleges worried if the public really knew about their financial challenges, their demise would become a self-fulfilling prophecy.

Barbara Brittingham: When an institution is financially fragile, we ought to be watching it. The accreditor should be watching it. Arguably, the state ought to be watching it. But we ought to do it in a way that doesn’t overly burden the institution, which is already working very hard to make things work.

Jon: Well, that makes sense. I can understand that once word is out that a college is in trouble, no one’s going to want to go to that school.

So if the public can’t see this financial stress test, how on earth is it useful? And how do I know if the school I’m choosing will close?

Rachel Burns: You don’t.

Jon: That’s Rachel Burns with the State Higher Education Executive Officers Association.

Rachel Burns: So I work on all of our projects related to financial aid, data and research and finance.

Jon: While financial stress tests don’t appear to have any teeth, she says they can still effectively protect consumers behind the scenes, almost like the pipes in a building. You don’t see them, but it’s good to know they’re there, right? And she thinks more states should install them.

Rachel Burns: Absolutely. State agencies should be requiring institutions to have plans in place in the event that a closure happens.

Jon: College closings disproportionately affect low-income and Black and Hispanic students. So Burns says these plans should include pathways for all students to continue their educations.

Rachel Burns: So whether they transfer to another institution that has agreed to take those students, if they have a really strong sort of crosswalk of how their credits might apply to other local institutions, and that there’s some sort of — this is less likely — but some sort of financial recompense for students. So if they’re getting tuition returned for that semester or if they’re getting any sort of assistance, you know, because that’s such an important indicator for whether a student is going to continue after a closure, is if they had some sort of support from the institution, whether it’s financial or, like, transfer agreements.

Jon: Burns says one reason more states haven’t followed Massachusetts’ lead is the strong private college lobby.

Rachel Burns: I mean, that’s part of it. I think some institutions are never going to be beholden to those rules because, you know, you wouldn’t ask an Ivy League institution or a really large land grant. And that’s not really who we’re focused on anyway.

Jon: Instead, they’re focused on small private colleges where the enrollment cliff has already arrived. Forty percent of colleges in this country enroll fewer than 1,000 students.

Another problem, Burns says, is that most state agencies don’t have the capacity to monitor the financial health of colleges.

Rachel Burns: We’re not going to catch any of the bad actors out there with authorization, because they’re already authorized. State agencies who are responsible for this authorization process just have to pick their battles. And even if those policies are on the books, they’re not always being enforced. So it’s on both sides of the equation. You know, the institutions aren’t doing it, but then the agencies aren’t enforcing it.

Kirk: Okay. So this gets wonky and bureaucratic pretty fast, but it’s so important. So let’s slow it down a bit. Bring it back to earth and explain why it matters to you. Jon, what happens to students and their credits when their college is closed?

Jon: Well, there is some research on this, and it shows there are two different scenarios. One is where a student is attending an institution that has a teach-out plan, or something similar between the closing institution and another college. It’s almost like automatic enrollment. In those cases, students tend to do pretty well. All or most of their credits transfer, and they just keep going as if almost nothing happened, although they might have to move or become an online student. Two thirds of those students re-enroll and they go on to complete a credential.

But Rachel Burns, who’s studied college closings, says then there are the students she’s most worried about. And this is the majority of students at colleges like Mount Ida, that give students too little warning that they’re going to close.

Rachel Burns: These are what we call the abrupt closures. They happen pretty quickly. There’s not a lot of notice, a lot of warning. And the institution itself doesn’t have any plan in place. And those students may be able to get their credits to transfer. They will always be able to access their transcript, but there’s no guarantee that another institution will take those credits, particularly if it’s a closure that happens for some sort of accreditation issue.

Jon: So if a school is losing accreditation, for example, those credits essentially have no value anymore.

Rachel Burns: The majority of students, when they’re in that situation, a little over half just don’t re-enroll. And if they do re-enroll, only about a third of them end up completing. So it’s a pretty significant barrier to getting to getting any further. And so then they tend to end up worse off. So they’ve spent all this time and this money for credits that don’t mean anything and never earn a credential.

Kirk: Wow, let’s repeat that. Half of those students whose colleges shut down abruptly never even re-enroll.

Jon: Yeah, 52 percent of those students never do. So they end up with debt and no degree.

Kirk: But that means the other half do transfer and continue on. Take Sam Marshall. She and her sister, Siobhan, were both enrolled at Mount Ida College when it announced it would shut down.

Sam Marshall: Yeah, I was in an accounting class, and I remember my professor looking like somebody had told her to look at her email. And she goes, ‘Why?’ And they’re like, ‘You need to see this.’ And she opens it and she goes, ‘Okay, so you all need to open your emails. And I’m going to allow you to leave for the day, and we’re just going to call class done. Because you guys don’t have a school and I no longer have a job.’

Siobhan Marshall: They were still giving tours that day, after I saw the email.

Kirk: Weeks later, the Marshall sisters attended a college fair on campus, and Sam decided to transfer to nearby Newbury College.

Sam Marshall: When Newbury came to Mount Ida to recruit students, I had sent an email to the admissions office asking if the college was in any danger of closing down, if they’re in any financial trouble. And they said, ‘Oh, no, we don’t have any plans of closing anytime soon.’ So I said, ‘Okay, I’ll go there.’

Kirk: But then a year later, Newbury shut down. Sam says she was depressed.

Sam Marshall: Oh, I was done. I just wanted to drop out. But I had to keep going.

Kirk: Sam transferred once again to Suffolk University in Boston. All of her credits didn’t transfer, though, so she says she had to enroll for a fifth year. Her experience at Mount Ida and then Newbury undermined her motivation and her faith in higher education.

Sam Marshall: I didn’t join any clubs. I wasn’t getting involved. I just wanted to graduate.

Kirk: And she worried about Suffolk University’s fate.

Sam Marshall: I don’t know, I always thought in the back of my mind that it was going to shut down, too.

Kirk: After four years, Sam thought she should have been done with college. But administrators told her she didn’t have enough credits.

Sam Marshall: So I did have to take another year. And even then, they said I would have to do another semester. But I said, ‘That makes no sense. I’ve done this much schooling.’ So the guy who I was talking to, very nice, looked into my past classes and said, ‘Oh, I found credits. You’re good to go.’

Kirk: She graduated, finally, with a degree in interior design. Meanwhile, her sister, Siobhan, was determined to finish her education so she could work in the funeral industry.

Siobhan Marshall: So I moved seven hours and out of state to a school that was supposed to provide me with the same education. And I stayed there for — what was it, like, two and a half years? — until Covid. And then the pandemic happened, and then I came back and immediately started working in a funeral home. And I worked all through the pandemic, and I was trying to complete my education during that time.

Kirk: That’s when Siobhan says she found out she’d been sold what she describes as …

Siobhan Marshall: … I was sold a lie going to New York because my education wasn’t comparable. There’s different laws in the two states. There’s so many things that I was told were interchangeable that were not. And it made working in this state while having to learn in that state pretty impossible.

Kirk: Now in their mid 20s, the two Marshall sisters are living at home with their parents, facing nearly $100,000 in student loan debt — each — and working jobs that don’t necessarily require their degrees.

Kirk: Are you surprised that Americans have so little faith in higher education?

Sam Marshall: No, not at all. Personally, I think I would be better off joining a trade or something else. I don’t know. It’s tough.

Kirk: In 2019, three former Mount Ida students filed a class-action lawsuit against the school’s leaders, claiming they were deliberately misled about the college’s ailing finances. But a federal judge dismissed it, saying Mount Ida had made all of its required public disclosures showing that the school had been operating at a deficit for three years — if they had bothered to check it. Philanthropist Bob Hildreth funded the lawsuit.

So why did you get involved?

Bob Hildreth: Because this was at the very beginning of colleges closing. I thought that students were being screwed by a process that didn’t give them enough time to pursue their education.

Kirk: Hildreth called the judge’s ruling appalling, not just for former Mount Ida students, but for college students and their families across the country.

Bob Hildreth: Universities, which were increasingly corporations, were treating their kids like Wall Street treats their employees. When they get into financial trouble, they just throw them out onto the street.

Jon: Harsh words. Well, Kirk, five years after Mount Ida shut down, higher ed researcher Rachel Burns predicts we’ll see more colleges head for the exits. It’ll be another long year of college closings.

Rachel Burns: We kind of anticipated as soon as federal funding dried up, there would be a bunch of closures right away. But we’re seeing that it’s actually sort of trickling across several years because every institution was kind of in a different place at the start of the pandemic. So it makes sense that they’re recovering or not recovering at different rates. So I don’t know that I would say 2024 will be historic, but I think the next three years combined, once we hit that demographic cliff — I think that will be significant. Probably the most closures we’ve had since about the 2010s, when there were all of the shutdowns of the private for-profits that had shady practices.

Kirk: So where is the accountability? The problem, Michael Horn says, is that the boards of trustees who are supposed to be overseeing these colleges are not really on top of this issue.

Michael Horn: They’re not asking the right questions of their presidents and provosts to say, are the trends in the right direction? This is a really terrible market in the sense that the buyers, the students, they have very little information. The college leadership has all the cards. And if, again, the school goes under, that hurts. That makes you uncertain about, ‘Gee, my neighbor just had this happen to them. Is this a good place for me to spend my next four years? Maybe I ought to just get a job.’

Kirk: Should more states adopt similar financial stress test?

Michael Horn: I think all states ought to adopt something like what Massachusetts has done, because the accreditors are not on top of this as much as they should be. They’re one line of defense. The federal government is a second line of defense. But it’s too big a country for them to be able to monitor this. And states are a third line of defense. And this is a really great place they can step in.

Jon: And more states might need to step in because higher ed’s enrollment problems are not going away. So as more colleges stop operating, experts say states will need to help protect consumers against the fresh wave of closings.

Kirk: This is College Uncovered from GBH and The Hechinger Report. I’m Kirk Carapezza.

Jon: And I’m Jon Marcus.

Kirk: Our show is created by Jon …

Jon: … and Kirk, and it’s edited by Jeff Keating. Meg Woolhouse is our supervising editor and Ellen London is the executive editor.

Kirk: Gary Mott and David Goodman are our mix engineers.

Jon: All of our music is by college bands. Our theme music is by Left Roman out of MIT. We also used music by students in the Pacific Jazz Ambassador program at University of the Pacific. In today’s episode, it was “The Crossing” by Marwan Ghonima.

Kirk: Additional sound by W.M. Quincy from freesound.org.

Mei He is our project manager and head of GBH podcasts is Devin Maverick Robins.

Jon: We’d love to hear from you. Send us an email to gbhnewsconnect@wgbh.org and tell us what you want to know about how colleges really operate. And if you’re with a college or university, tell us what you think the public should know about higher education.

College Uncovered is a production of GBH News and The Hechinger Report and distributed by PRX. It’s made possible by Lumina Foundation.

Kirk: Thank you so much for listening.

The post College Uncovered, Season 2, Episode 4 appeared first on The Hechinger Report.

As they struggle to fill seats, universities on average dole out more than half of the revenue they collect from tuition in the form of discounts and financial aid.

If a private company discounted its products by more than half, it would be out of business. It’s an incredibly self-destructive model, but no one seems willing to be the first to stop doing it.

This financial arms war among colleges is draining so much revenue that many are losing money even as they increase their tuition. That’s because almost no one pays the advertised price; nearly all students, including those whose families can afford to pay, now get discounts and institutional financial aid. Not only is this pushing colleges into insolvency; it discourages many students and families — particularly low-income ones — from considering a college, since they see only the advertised cost and don’t realize they’d almost certainly pay a much, much lower one.

These many machinations are beginning to slow down the annual increases in the cost of college. Some institutions are even lowering their prices. In this episode of College Uncovered, The Hechinger Report and GBH will show you how to take advantage of the college pricing chaos.

Listen to the whole series

Scroll to the end of this transcript to find out more about these topics, with links to additional helpful information — including a tool to help you search for calculators that will tell you the likely net price you will pay at any college, based on your income.

Jon: So we’re here at Vinyl Index, which is a very hip record store. They sell new and used vinyl, in the very hip boom market section of Somerville outside of Boston.

Kirk: And you’re looking for some ’80s albums? Maybe Chicago?

Jon: And we are not looking for some ’80s albums, but we’re looking for some rare albums, and we’re going to see what kind of a discount we can get.

Kirk: You’re going to haggle.

Jon: We’re going. To haggle.

Aaron Wetjen-Barry: I am Aaron Wetjen-Barry, aka Aaron-eous. I work here at Vinyl Index, ordering new and used music.

Kirk: Aaron-eous. Can you explain the nickname?

Aaron Wetjen-Barry: So, I started in college, actually, but I’m a visual artist, and I’m kind of from the hip hop scene where we all have our, like, hip hop names.

Jon: So tell me what the most expensive album is that you have here?

Aaron Wetjen-Barry: So, we sell a lot of, say, Grateful Dead box sets here. So, you know, like, something like this. This record just has, like, eight records in there. So it’s, like, four hours of music.

Kirk: How much does that go for?

Aaron Wetjen-Barry: This one goes for $200 even.

Jon: So can we get this for 56 percent off?

Aaron Wetjen-Barry: Unfortunately, the mark up is not that good, so it wouldn’t be able to do that.

Jon: Yeah, so what would happen if you sold everything here in this shop for 56 percent off?

Aaron Wetjen-Barry: We’d probably be out of business in a week.

Jon: That makes pretty logical sense if you do the math. I mean, a business can’t give back more than half of what it makes and stay in business.

Kirk: But that’s exactly what colleges and universities are doing in a complicated and largely unknown pricing strategy that makes seemingly no logical sense at all. Or does it?

This is College Uncovered from GBH News and The Hechinger Report podcast, pulling back the ivy to reveal how colleges really work.

I’m Kirk Carapezza from GBH.

Jon: And I’m Jon Marcus with The Hechinger Report.

Kirk: We’re calling this episode “Half Off Full Price.”

Jon: We’ve been talking on this podcast about how families can negotiate their way into a discount on the cost of college, but how much money colleges are actually giving away might come as a surprise.

Colleges give back, in the form of tuition discounts and financial aid, 56 percent of the revenue they take in. And that’s the average. Some are giving overall discounts of 60 or even 70 percent.

The colleges don’t call them discounts. They call them scholarships. And that’s how families see them when they get offered their financial aid. But those are just fancy ways to reduce the price, the same way retailers do when they’re trying to attract more customers.

Kirk: This discounting practice started back in the ’90s, the last time colleges faced a really big enrollment decline. Today, both public and private colleges do it.

Will Doyle: Many people thought a lot of private colleges were going to go out of business at that time.

Kirk: Will Doyle is a professor of higher education at Vanderbilt University.

Will Doyle: What the private colleges did, though, was they figured out that the worst thing in the world is an empty seat. If they could figure out what somebody was willing to pay for a seat and charge them that, then they might as well fill every seat and get what they could for it.

Kirk: So Doyle says that’s exactly what they did.

Will Doyle: They looked at what people in different categories were willing to pay and figured out what they could charge them. And by doing that, they ended up being able to fill those empty seats. And they survived what was supposed to be an incredibly difficult time, actually pretty well.

Kirk: Notice that he isn’t saying that the money goes to the people who couldn’t pay the full freight, just that they might be on the fence about picking a school. So colleges have steadily shifted some of their financial aid to people who might not actually need it, just to get them to enroll.

Will Doyle: Colleges actually will charge a little less for the highest-income students, the ones who are closest to the ability to do full pay, because just a small discount, a small honorific discount where you’ve told the student they’ve gotten the scholarship, can tip the decision for that student to attend. Many of the highest-income students with not necessarily great test scores actually do receive some amount of financial aid.

Jon: Right, just like the way the person sitting next to you on an airplane might have paid a completely different price for the flight. From the college’s point of view, it sort of makes sense. You need to have at least some people who can pay at least some of the tuition.

Brett Schraeder: But if you don’t give them anything, they may never show up. And so then you don’t have any revenue from that student to help with your mission, to help serve other students, to pay your faculty.

Jon: That’s Brett Schraeder, managing director for financial aid at the consulting firm EAB, which advises colleges about this kind of thing.

But as the years have gone by, this approach has sort of trapped many colleges and universities in a cutthroat competition for students to whom they have to give more and more discounts and financial aid. And continuing to advertise a very high list or sticker price that almost no one pays is discouraging some students from even applying to colleges that might be a really good fit for them.

Kirk: Okay, so what does all of this mean to you if you’re a student or a parent? Well, you could be missing out. One survey found that a majority of families don’t know that colleges discount their price. Another, by the student loan company Sallie Mae, finds that nearly 80 percent of people eliminate a college from consideration because they see the list price, and they think it’s too high.

Brian Rosenberg saw this firsthand from the inside.

Brian Rosenberg: I am president emeritus of Macalester College and author of a recent book, Whatever It Is, I’m against It: Resistance to Change in Higher Education.

Jon: Rosenberg says the whole pricing mechanism is complicated and baffling to a consumer.

Brian Rosenberg: And so students, particularly first-generation students, students who aren’t particularly sophisticated, will simply look at the fact that a college’s posted price for tuition, room and board of $70,000 and say, ‘Well, I’m not even going to think about that.’

Jon: That’s right — even though almost no one actually pays that price. I ran the federal data, which, as you know, Kirk, is something I like to do in my free time. And there are 428 colleges and universities at which not a single incoming freshman pays the full price.

Kirk: So that leads to another little secret you might not have noticed. Yes, it’s true that the price of tuition and fees has been going up at three times the rate of inflation, but those price increases have suddenly leveled off.

In 2022, average tuition actually went down, when adjusted for inflation.

Let’s be clear. Paying for college is still scary and expensive. But the point of all this is that it doesn’t cost as much as people sometimes think. And the price? It’s pretty much stopped going up.

Jon: I mean, as you said, college is still really expensive. Tuition, room, board, books and other costs comes to nearly $60,000 a year at private nonprofit colleges and nearly 30 grand at public ones. But colleges are giving back more and more of their money to fill seats. Which means they’re running into money crunches of their own.

So how do students and their parents take advantage of this practice? We asked one of the top experts who helps low income and first-generation students do it.

Scott Del Rossi: My name is Scott Del Rossi and I am the vice president of college and career at College Possible. College Possible is a national nonprofit, that provides college access and college success coaching to about 25,000 students across the country.

Jon: So how can a family find out how much of a discount they might get from a particular college? I mean, short of actually applying.

Scott Del Rossi: If you navigate to their financial aid page. Oftentimes they’ll have a tuition calculator that you can enter in your family’s income, yearly income. And that will let you know how much college will typically cost for a family at that income.

Jon: That’s true. The colleges are actually required by law to provide these net price calculators. They’re supposed to tell you what you’ll actually pay after discounts and financial aid based on your family income. And for the most part, they’ll give you the right general idea.

But a study by researchers at the University of Pennsylvania found that some of the links didn’t work, or the prices were out of date, or they didn’t say what year they were from. So don’t assume they’re right on the money — so to speak.

Scott: Absolutely. Ironically, I was looking for one for the other day, and it was very much buried on the website. You kind of had to know it existed in order just to find the calculator.

Kirk: So now you know, and just knowing about these discounts can be a big help in getting the best deal, especially with many colleges so desperate for enrollment. Here’s Scott Del Rossi again.

Scott Del Rossi: We always recommend to students and families that they apply to more than one college.

Jon: You mean, so they can pit one against the other?

Scott Del Rossi: You can always present that as, you know, ‘Hey, these are the things that I really hope that you consider, and reevaluate the financial aid award. And these are the types of awards I’m getting from other colleges and universities.’

Kirk: This growing discount rate is a major reason why a lot of them are closing or likely to close, which we’re also going to be talking about this season.

Don’t just take it from us. We asked Brian Rosenberg, the former president of Macalester, who had to deal with this problem, whether a 56 percent average discount rate at private colleges is too much.

Brian Rosenberg: It’s unsustainable.

Jon: So why don’t colleges stop?

Brian Rosenberg: They have no choice. I mean, the obvious question that a lot of people ask is, ‘Well, if your discount rate is 50 percent, why don’t you just cut your sticker price in half?’ And some colleges are doing that.

Jon: You’re talking about a tuition reset.

Brian Rosenberg: A tuition reset.

Jon: A tuition reset is the higher education’s sort of typically wonky way of describing lowering the price. And as Brian Rosenberg says, some colleges are trying that now, charging everyone the average that people were paying anyway without playing the game of showing one price and charging another one.

Kirk: Especially in places where they’re running out of students, like in the Northeast and the Midwest. That’s where an enrollment cliff is on its way, as the number of 18-year-olds declines.

Susan Stuebner: My name is Sue Stuebner, and I’m the president of Colby Sawyer College, which is in New London, New Hampshire.

Jon: Last year, Colby Sawyer lowered its advertised price by more than 60 percent, down from about $46,000 to $17,000 a year, not including room and board. Not a single student was paying the full price anyway.

Susan Stuebner: As institutions’ tuition prices go up, you’re losing the chance to have a conversation with more and more families. And so the pool you’re actually drawing from gets smaller and smaller. And we looked around the marketplace and our listed or sticker-price tuition was among the highest in New Hampshire as well as even in in New England. So when I mentioned that statistic earlier about not being in conversation with so many families, you know, that combined with the enrollment cliff had us very nervous.

Kirk: Stuebner says that Colby Sawyer has gotten a bump in applications, and a lot more of the students it accepted have already put down their deposits. And other colleges are watching whether this model works.

Susan Stuebner: We’re getting a lot of interest. You know, a lot of folks have reached out and just asked about the process. So I think, if nothing else, a lot of schools are considering it.

Kirk: But American consumer behavior is a little strange. For one thing, if something costs more, we seem to think it must be better. Like cars. Or whiskey. Will Doyle says it’s called the Chivas Regal Effect.

Will Doyle: It’s called the Chivas Regal Effect because Chivas Regal is this kind of mediocre whiskey. And they came up with a brilliant strategy, which was actually to increase their price. And by increasing the price, they moved it from the bottom shelf to the middle shelf. And people look at whiskeys and they think, ‘Oh, the middle shelf must be an okay whiskey.’ And they bought that one.

Lots of colleges find the same thing that when they reduce the sticker price. When they reduce the stated price, the perceived quality of the institution goes down. So if an institution maintains a very high stated price, they’re kind of saying, ‘Oh, we’re a high-quality place. Then they can quietly discount for the set of students that they’re seeking to enroll.

Kirk: So you’re there in Tennessee, a major producer of whiskey, and the sticker price at Vanderbilt is now approaching $100,000 a year. Is that the Chivas Regal Effect?

Will Doyle: I’m going to decline to comment on my own institution.

Kirk: Okay. Fair enough. So the other thing that colleges have done is disguise the discounts as scholarships that parents love to see. It gives the parents bragging rights. And at a lot of colleges, almost everybody gets them. But we love to get awards. And so when colleges lower the price, Susan Stuebner says parents want to know where their kids’ scholarships went.

Susan Stuebner: The group that had the most difficult time understanding what we were trying to do were our current students. We provided them with a comparison of what they were currently receiving from the college that year and what they would receive the next year. When you looked at the actual amount they paid to attend Colby Sawyer, it was the same. But for some families and for some students, you know, their initial reaction was, you’re taking this scholarship away from me.

Jon: Brett Schrader’s consulting firm does a survey of high school seniors every year to find out what would attract them to a college.

Brett Schraeder: We ask them, ‘Hey, if you had three different awards, if you had a $40,000 prize and a $20,000 scholarship, if you had a $30,000 prize and a $10,000 scholarship, or you had just a $20,000 prize — so basically same net cost for each one — which one would you pick?’ Always. They pick the ones with the scholarships.

Jon: The bottom line is that colleges and universities have created a system that makes it ridiculously hard for people to figure out what they’ll actually pay, even though it might be less than they expect.

Susan Stuebner: In today’s era, higher education is being scrutinized for how much it costs, and at the same time, what it actually costs to families is much less for most of us than what we list. So it’s very confusing.

Jon: It’s pretty quiet here on a Thursday morning on a campus. I thought it was Friday that students didn’t go to class.

Kirk: We went to the campus of Lasell University, which, like Colby Sawyer, also cut its price this year by about a third, from nearly $60,000 to just under $40,000. Lasell is one of those schools we mentioned earlier where not a single student had been paying the advertised sticker price. That raises the question, do students who are already attending save any money when a college cuts its list price?

Jon: We caught up with a business management major on her way to or her off campus job.

Rose Andrey Pluviose: My name is Rose Andrey Pluviose. I’m a senior here at LaSalle, and I’m from Boston, Massachusetts.

Jon: Did you come out ahead when they lowered the price? Did you end up paying less to go here?

Rose Andrey Pluviose: I would say about $1,500 less.

Jon: Other students came out even.

Parker Tallman: I’m Parker Tallman. I am 21 years old. I’m from New Jersey. So for me, it didn’t really make an impact. Tuition went down, which means your scholarships go down, too. So even though we’re paying less out of pocket, the scholarships go down as well. I don’t know what the dollar figure is, what I’m paying right now anymore. And I just heard that it’s possibly going up again.

Jon: Lots of students told us the same thing — that the pricing system at colleges doesn’t make much sense when tuition gets lowered by $20,000, but their own price stays the same or falls by maybe $1,500.

Parker Tallman: It shouldn’t be that difficult. If you’re going to have a set price, have a set price.

Jon: But in your case, basically you came out even.

Parker Tallman: I came out even. Yeah, basically I came out even, luckily.

Jon: Scott Del Rossi also warns that tuition resets are a little bit of a gimmick when you do the math, and that people shouldn’t get too excited about them.

Scott Del Rossi: If the sticker price is still being lowered, but the financial aid package is getting lowered, we certainly do want to get students’ and families’ hopes up.

Kirk: So the moral of this crazy story is to not assume that the price you see is what you’ll pay for college. You will likely pay a lot less.

Jon: We’ll let Brian Rosenberg have the last word here. The former president of Macalester says colleges are clinging to this impenetrable pricing strategy in a desperate bid for survival.

Brian Rosenberg: These colleges need students. And unless they keep marking down the price more and more, students simply are not going to come. There are many, many colleges where not a single student pays the full price. It is like a business that is struggling to stay alive.

Jon: And yet we keep doing it.

Brian Rosenberg: And yet we keep doing it.

Kirk: This is College Uncovered. I’m Kirk Carapezza from GBH.

Jon: And I’m Jon Marcus from The Hechinger Report. Be sure to keep listening to future episodes to hear more about what colleges and universities don’t teach you.

Kirk: We would love to hear from you. Send us an email to gbhnewsconnect@wgbh.org and tell us what you want to know about how colleges really operate. And if you’re with a college or university. Tell us what you think the public should know about higher ed.

Jon: This episode was produced and written by Kirk Carapezza …

Kirk: … and Jon Marcus, and it’s edited by Jeff Keating. Meg Woolhouse is our supervising editor and Ellen London is the executive producer.

Gary Mott and David Goodman are our mix engineers. We had production assistance from Diane Adame.

All of our music is by college bands. Theme song and original music by Left Roman out of MIT.

Mei He is our project manager and head of GBH podcasts is Devin Maverick Robins.

College Uncovered is a production of GBH News and The Hechinger Report and distributed by PRX. It’s made possible by Lumina Foundation.

The post College Uncovered, Season 2, Episode 3 appeared first on The Hechinger Report.

Colleges make it hard to even understand what they will cost, with confusing financial aid offers full of indecipherable jargon. But that’s not where the trouble ends.

In a kind of bait and switch, for instance, students typically get less institutional financial aid if they return as sophomores, since colleges figure they already have them on the hook, a surprise for which they haven’t budgeted. Another cruel surprise: When students earn hard-won scholarships from the likes of local Rotary clubs and chambers of commerce, universities reduce their already-promised institutional financial aid by the same amount, resulting in a zero net gain — often without warning or explanation.

In this episode of College Uncovered, The Hechinger Report and GBH reveal these tricks. But there’s some good news, too. Though they represent a fraction of the nation’s more than 4,000 colleges and universities, more than 350 institutions agreed last year to simplify and standardize financial aid offers. And families might not know it, but they can negotiate for more financial aid, especially from the many universities and colleges that are having trouble filling seats these days.

Listen to the whole series

Jon: Interpreting financial aid offers from colleges and universities is confusing and difficult. And then there’s what happened to Emily Meyer, a parent from Saint Paul, Minnesota, who we met in our previous episode. She was sending her second kid to college when the financial aid process went completely off the rails. The school offered $3,000 in financial aid. Meyer did the math and figured that getting $12,000 over four years would be enough for her family to afford the school, so her daughter enrolled.

Kirk: Let the pursuit of higher learning begin, right?

Jon: Well, not exactly.

Emily Meyer: They came back the next year and said that that was a mistake. And that it shouldn’t have ever happened. And then we kind of argued back and forth about how, you know, part of our decision in agreeing to commit to this school was after we had negotiated the financials.

Jon: That’s right. The college offered the money, then took it away. She wouldn’t tell us which college it was, but as you can imagine, Meyer didn’t take this sitting down. This was money she was counting on.

Emily Meyer: And they said, sorry, it was a mistake. We’ll give you half of it for this year, but you’ll get no more going forward.

[College Uncovered theme music]

Kirk: This is College Uncovered from GBH News and The Hechinger Report — a podcast pulling back the Ivy to reveal how colleges really work. I’m Kirk Carapezza with GBH.

Jon: And I’m Jon Marcus at The Hechinger Report.

Kirk: Colleges don’t want you to know how they operate. So GBH, …

Jon: … in collaboration with The Hechinger Report, is here to show you.

In our first season, we helped you navigate the college admissions process. Now we’re back to guide you through the even more confusing territory of paying for college. On the way, we’ll expose a lot of secrets that you really need to know, and some of the shady ways colleges make their prices seem much lower than they actually are. And before we’re done, we’ll tell you what you need to know to put the power back in your hands and get the best deal.

Today on the show: ‘Bait and Switch.’

Last time, we told you about misleading financial aid offers. Deciphering those is hard enough. Then you have the worst-case scenarios, like Meyer’s, in which the grant you counted on just disappears. And I should add that her family ended up having to take out more loans after the college rescinded the financial aid it promised her.

The whole process has become so frustrating for people that there have been few attempts to fix it.

Kirk: That’s right. But don’t hold your breath. The Department of Education urged colleges to adopt a single, simple, standardized financial aid offer. That was 11 years ago. And it was also voluntary. So fewer than half of colleges actually agreed to use it. Two years ago, the Government Accountability Office found that half of all financial aid offers from colleges made the total price seem lower than it actually was, and almost half did not include the price at all. That got Congress sniffing around and threatening to make colleges fix this.

To hold off the regulators, about 500 schools got together this year to create something called the College Cost Transparency Initiative. It’s supposed to make the financial aid forms more understandable and comparable from one college to another. If you step back and think about it, that’s pretty much admitting that they weren’t doing this all along. Which is kind of incredible.

Terry Hartle: Colleges and universities haven’t always done as much as they could to ensure that families had access to clear, accurate, comparable, consumer friendly information. And it’s clear to many of us in higher education that we needed to do a better job.

Jon: That’s Terry Hartle. For many years, he was higher education’s top lobbyist at the American Council on Education. Now he’s working with colleges to clean up these forms.

Terry Hartle: Obviously, to some institutions, a financial aid award letter is part of an effort to attract a student to enroll at that institution. So they can look more like a marketing document than a consumer information about how you’re going to pay for college.

Jon: Do you think colleges are signing on to this because it’s better than waiting for someone else to make them?

Terry Hartle: That was certainly part of the thinking that motivated us to sit down and say, ‘We need to do a better job.’ It was also, frankly, a thinking that, yeah, there’s some truth to the GAO report. We’re not doing as good a job as we can, and we owe it to consumers to do a better job.

Kirk: Some advocates for students are waiting to see if this new form really improves things. This is the first admission season colleges are using it. Plus, only about one in eight of them have signed on. Rachel Fishman works on this issue at the think tank New America. She believes Congress should require that financial aid offer letters be standardized, just as it regulates the people who sell you a mortgage.

Rachel Fishman: At the end of the day, they still format their own offers. They still make them all look their own way. You still can’t compare those offers readily or easily, and it’s still very complicated.

Kirk: That causes so much confusion that some students end up dropping out because they underestimated what college would actually cost, or they give up and never even set foot on a campus. This especially affects low-income students. About one in five students who are accepted in the spring never show up for college in the fall.

Jon: And, Kirk, even if they do enroll, the tricks that colleges pull with financial aid don’t stop there. There are a lot of rules around financial aid that families don’t always notice, even after their students are already on the campus.

Mark Salisbury: For example, to say you’ve qualified for $120,000 in scholarship money, and then the small print is over four years, and then the smaller print is, if you remain a full time student, pass 15 credits for a semester and maintain a 3.8 GPA.

Jon: That’s Mark Salisbury. He’s a former admissions counselor. And he says that’s only some of the fine print. We’ll tell you about more in a moment.

Salisbury says this is such a big problem that he co-founded a company called Tuition Fit, which uses crowdsourcing to help families find out the real amount of financial aid they’re likely to get. Basic access for families is free, and they can pay 49 bucks for more detailed information. Salisbury says it’s another potential solution to not getting the information that you need.

Mark Salisbury: And then it goes into our big data sets so that the family can come to TuitionFit and see which colleges are going to fit my price range. ‘Here’s my financial situation, here’s my student’s GPA, and we don’t want to spend more than $20,000 on college per year.’ Okay, here’s the schools that are offering a price in that price range. It’s all about balancing this marketplace so that the consumer has enough power in that space to be more likely to get the price that they need.

Kirk: Salisbury says colleges are playing on families’ emotions.

Mark Salisbury: There’s this notion that students have to shoot for the most prestigious place they can possibly get into, and that’s somehow their ticket to life as a successful adult. That’s a myth that’s absolutely been fostered by institutions, by the whole college marketing machine. And so from a parent’s standpoint, you start to think, ‘If I don’t make that happen for my student, then I’m a failure as a parent.’

Jon: But it’s really all about the money. I mean, colleges are businesses and they try to get their customers to pay as much as possible.

Kirk: Okay, so let’s recap here. Understand that financial aid may be contingent on keeping a certain GPA or remaining a full-time student, and scholarships and grants may be used to benefit the college’s bottom line instead of yours. Sadly, these are not the only dirty little secrets about financial aid that students and their parents need to know.

Jon: That’s right. So let’s talk about some of the other roadblocks families encounter. One of the most surprising to a lot of people is that the amount of financial aid they get will probably go down once a college has them on the hook. This is known as ‘front-loading’ or ‘bait and switch.’ What it means is that the amount of financial aid students get as freshmen typically goes down when they come back as sophomores. That leaves a lot of students in a bind. Do they take out more loans, transfer somewhere else, drop out?

Kirk: But wait! There’s more! Colleges often cut back on the financial aid they give students if the students also get private scholarships from the Rotary Club or the Garden Club or the Chamber of Commerce. After all the hard work you did to get those scholarships, about half of colleges reduce the financial aid they already promised you by the equivalent amount. This is known as scholarship displacement.

We talked to Kalwis Lo about this. He’s director of strategic partnerships at Scholarship America, which represents those private scholarship providers.

Kalwis Lo: The amount that is reduced is typically equal to the dollar amount of a student’s scholarship award. So it leaves them with a zero net benefit for the hard work that they put in.

Kirk: This usually comes as another nasty surprise to families and students, and it’s so angers parents and policymakers that several states have banned scholarship displacement.

Kalwis Lo: Oftentimes, students will either get a bill in their student account or the numbers don’t add up. And when they go to find out from the financial aid office, they learn that the institutional grant or some form of grant was reduced because of their scholarship award.

Jon: And once again, it’s worst for the poorest families.

Kalwis Lo: College is not affordable at the moment for students who come from low-income families. And so rather than borrowing loans or working several jobs out there in college, students pursue scholarship awards. They have to submit essays, they have to seek letters of recommendation. And when all that effort is put into a scholarship application and they get awarded a scholarship, and they see other financial aid being reduced to zero at an equivalent amount of their private scholarship, then they feel that their hard work was wasted.

Jon: So that means people who think they’ll get financial aid throughout their student’s time in college might have an unpleasant surprise coming.

Kirk: Yesenia Bedolla is a student in California, and she also found her financial aid reduced in her sophomore year.

Yesenia Bedolla: I mean, to get an outside scholarship, I put in a lot of prior work to that, and that’s the case for basically every student that receives an outside scholarship. They put a lot of time and effort into the process alone. So it is very discouraging to sort of, in a way, be punished for the, work that we did.

Jon: Did you go back to them and ask if they could give you more?

Yesenia Bedolla: I actually wasn’t aware that we could do that. Is that something? Okay.

Kirk: Yes! It is something! Students and their families can negotiate for more financial aid.

Jon: Right. So, finally, some good news — and important advice. That’s what we’re going to leave you with today.

A lot of colleges have an incentive to be more generous. That’s due to demographics. Enrollments are in decline. And the college-age population in the U.S. is shrinking. Understanding that can help you get leverage in this process. We’ll tell you in our next episode about exactly how generous and how much financial aid and discounts colleges are shoveling out to fill seats. But a lot of parents don’t know that they can ask the financial aid office to increase their offer. So in addition to being on the lookout for all of these tricks in the process, and knowing to read the offers very carefully and ask what things mean, families can negotiate for more financial aid.

Here’s Debbie Schwartz, who counsels families about financial aid. She says not to be shy about asking for more.

Debbie Schwartz: You know, I say, why not? What’s the worst answer you’re going to get? No? So you’ll be in the same position you are today, even if you got a few thousand dollars, a few thousand dollars every year, you know, could add up to another $6,000 to $8,000 and more. So I say, why not ask?

Kirk: Mark Salisbury offers similar advice. He says you should approach the process in the same way as you might buy a house.

Mark Salisbury: The very first exchange with the other side of the transaction is a first offer. You go back to the school and ask for a better price, and you ask genuinely, respectfully, kindly, and you begin to make the case that this cost is a substantial challenge for us as a family. And we would like to make it work. But we need your help to get there.

Jon: Especially at colleges that are hurting for enrollment, which is a lot of colleges these days.

Mark Salisbury: Then you have a lot of leverage. You really get to take advantage of the buyer’s market. The only time that that’s not true is if the only schools you’re applying to are the schools that everybody else would give their left hand to go to. But if I’m not one of those handful of schools and I’m scrambling to fill my class every year, then I’m much more willing to negotiate.

Jon: Debbie Schwartz makes the point that we often make on this podcast that higher education is a business. She says she came to that realization after going through the process herself.

Debbie Schwartz: And I had this awe of the ivory tower, you know, the academic campus. And so I myself didn’t think of them as a business until I had to go through the admissions process with my daughter. And that’s when I realized that this is a business, which is okay. And you need to understand you’re the consumer and you need to approach it as any other consumer purchase that you will make.

Kirk: And since information is power, we have some links on our landing page with advice about how to be the best consumer of a college education.

This is College Uncovered. I’m Kirk Carapezza from GBH.

Jon: And I’m Jon Marcus from The Hechinger Report. Be sure to keep listening to future episodes to hear more about what colleges and universities don’t teach you.

Kirk: We’d love to hear from you. Send us an email to gbhnewsconnect@wgbh.org and tell us what you want to know about how colleges really operate. And if you’re with a college or university, tell us what you think the public should know about higher ed.

Jon: This episode was produced and written by Kirk Carapezza …

Kirk: … and Jon Marcus, and it was edited by Jeff Keating. Meg Woolhouse is supervising editor. Ellen London is the executive editor.

Mixing and sound design by David Goodman and Gary Mott.

We had production assistants from Diane Adame.

All of our music is by college bands. Our theme song is by Left Roman out of MIT. Mei He is our project manager and head of GBH podcasts is Devin Maverick Robins.

College Uncovered is a production of GBH News and The Hechinger Report and distributed by PRX. It’s made possible by Lumina Foundation.

The post College Uncovered, Season 2, Episode 2 appeared first on The Hechinger Report.

Congratulations! You got accepted to college. The next notification you’ll get: a financial aid offer, telling you what it will cost.

Those financial aid offers are notoriously indecipherable and misleading, making it difficult to make college cost comparisons or even know how much you’ll owe. Often crafted in a way that make a college look more affordable than it is, they’re full of technical jargon and abbreviations. Loans are described as ‘awards.’ The offers will list an ‘expected family contribution’ of zero, not accounting for those parent or student loans, which, in fact, eventually require a substantial family contribution.

In this episode of College Uncovered, The Hechinger Report and GBH show you what to look out for and secrets to taking back control of the financial aid process, and getting the best deal.

Listen to the whole series

TRANSCRIPT

Scroll to the end of this transcript to find out more about these topics.

Sound of college applicants: Oh my God, guys, I’m just not realizing how much I want to go to Brown. I’m so scared.

Oh, it’s okay baby.

Oh my God. Oh my God. What the actual frick. …

I got in! I got in!

Kirk: Congratulations. You just got into college.

Jon: Right. Now good luck paying for it. Figuring out the financial aid process is hard enough, and this year it was even worse, thanks to the government’s bungled rollout of the Federal Application for Financial Student Aid.

Kirk: Yeah, that’s the dreaded FAFSA form. It was released months late and with mistakes. For example, it didn’t account for inflation. And this is a form that millions of students depend on to get the financial aid they need. So the impact this could have on college enrollment is devastating. But figuring out how to pay for college has always been, let’s say, uncomfortable.

Caroline Miller: It’s kind of like having a financial colonoscopy.

Jon: That’s a parent going through the financial aid wringer for the first time. And she makes a pretty good point.

Caroline Miller: My name is Caroline Miller. I live in Anchorage, Alaska, and I have a senior in high school and we are in the waiting process.

Kirk: You can hear it in her voice how stressed out she is about all of this.

Caroline Miller: It’s awful. It is so anxiety inducing. Sometimes it just wakes you up at night, just wondering. We aren’t exactly financial gurus. We’re just hanging on by our fingernails. And we were very nervous about getting it wrong. I wonder why we all do this. I really do. I kind of sometimes think, why didn’t we just direct him towards a trade?

[College Uncovered theme music]

Kirk: This is College Uncovered from GBH News and The Hechinger Report, a podcast pulling back the Ivy to reveal how colleges really work. I’m Kirk Carapezza with GBH …

Jon: … and I’m Jon Marcus at The Hechinger Report.

Kirk: Colleges don’t want you to know how they operate.

Jon: So we’re here to show you.

In our first season, we helped you navigate the college admissions process. Now we’re back to guide you through the even more confusing territory of financial aid. On the way, we’ll expose a lot of secrets that you really need to know, and some of the shady ways colleges make their prices seem much lower than they actually are.

Today on the show: ‘Buyer, Beware.’

Kirk: So paying for college education is likely to be among the most expensive purchases that people ever make. Even when you buy a house, every fee and charge has to be broken down for you. But figuring out how much you’ll ultimately have to pay for college can be like deciphering a foreign language.

Jon: The whole point of this episode is how complicated and confusing financial aid is.

Kirk: First, we’ll show you about the first step in this process, which is when the college is supposed to tell you how much financial aid you’ll get. Then we’ll show you what they do and the language they use to make that much harder than it needs to be.

Jon: But hang in there, because in our next episode, we’ll tell you some secrets about financial aid that most families don’t know, and that can help you get the best deal.

Kirk: Okay, so after that acceptance that you worked so hard for — and, again, congrats — comes another message from the college. And this one might not be so welcome. It’s when you find out how much financial aid you’re getting, taking you from the high of getting in to the low of realizing how much it’s all going to cost. Emily Meyer has already suffered through that with two of her kids, and now she has a third one on the way to college.

Emily Meyer: It’s an exciting process. And then it’s, like, a heartbreaking process, because you don’t want to get in somewhere that is a dream school and you can’t go because you can’t pay for it.

Jon: Meyer lives just outside Saint Paul, Minnesota. And when her oldest went to college, her family got no financial aid. That’s because after raising her kids alone, she had just gotten remarried and her new husband’s income put them in a bracket that required them to pay the full price.

Emily Meyer: Quite honestly, I was stunned. I was stunned at what college was going to cost us. I mean, we qualified for nothing. We qualified for zero. And I think that, to me, is, like, I want to just scream it from the rooftops, because I don’t think that people know that.

Jon: Man, you can really feel for these parents. But no matter how complex they think the application process is, financial aid is worse. First comes the pain of filling out the FAFSA. We talked a little bit about that at the top and how bungled it was this year. And that’s only the first step. The FAFSA is what’s used to determine how much federal aid a student might get, but most colleges also use it to decide how much institutional financial aid to give. By the way, just to make things worse, some private colleges make you fill out yet another form for that purpose.

Anyway, all of this information is used by colleges to send you a financial aid offer. It’s supposed to tell families what they’ll be paying, but it’s often just a jumble of jargon. Like when you see on the form that your expected family contribution is zero? Don’t buy it. You may actually have to take out thousands of dollars worth of loans to make it work. For some reason, colleges don’t consider loans to be part of your — quote, unquote — expected family contribution, even though you have to pay the money back with interest.

Kirk: Right. And those loans are often hidden behind indecipherable and meaningless abbreviations, or they’re misleadingly described as awards.

Jon: After going through this herself. Debbie Schwartz now advises other parents about colleges’ financial aid tricks. Schwartz lives in Pennsylvania, and she describes what goes through a parent’s mind when the financial aid offer shows up.

Debbie Schwartz: Is this free money? Is this a scholarship? Is this a loan? If it’s a loan, who’s providing the loan? What’s the interest rate?

Kirk: Schwartz charges $200 to $300 to help parents make sense of these offers. But sometimes even the people who do this for a living can be stumped. When Michelle Jean-Louis got into college, it looked to her like some of the schools were giving her enough financial aid to pay for all of her expenses.

Michelle Jean-Louis: I thought that meant that everything was covered, but upon looking at the offer letters, I would still have to pay $15,000 for room and board.

Jon: Jean-Louis’s offer referred to something called ‘expected costs.’ And then it referred to something else called ‘estimated costs.’

Kirk: Come on. Are you kidding me?

Jon: Nope. And both of those are somehow different from the ‘expected family contribution.’

Michelle Jean-Louis: There’s ‘federal subsidized loan’ and ‘federal unsubsidized loan.’ I wasn’t sure what that meant — if the ‘unsubsidized’ or the ‘subsidized’ meant that I wouldn’t have to pay them back.

Jon: A financial aid officer from her local university volunteered to help her out, and even he was confused.

Michelle Jean-Louis: It felt like we were figuring out at the same time, just because a lot of times on our Zoom meetings, he would be Googling things.

Jon: We asked Jean-Louis to take us back through some of the forms she got from all the colleges that accepted her.

Michelle Jean-Louis: They did not look the same. For example, the one that I’m looking at doesn’t really include any sort of glossary for what any of the terms met. But for another college, they included a glossary of what every word meant for their specific institutions, which I later found out is not uniform across the board.

Jon: She finally decided on Harvard, which offered her the biggest amount of aid. But the whole torturous process took a lot of the celebration out of getting into college for her.

Michelle Jean-Louis: I like to say that applying to college is not the hard part. It’s applying for financial aid. Most students go through this process blind, and a lot of times when you do sign these financial aid offers, you still don’t know what you are in for until you get to college and you get the bill.

Kirk: Okay, so just to be clear, Jean-Louis was smart enough to get into Harvard but still struggled with these forms.

Jon: Yeah, like I said, they can trip up even the experts. Anika Van Eaton is vice president for policy at uAspire, which helps the most vulnerable students go to college. She says it’s often Black, Hispanic and low-income students, and students whose parents never finished college, who suffer the most.

Anika Van Eaton: A lot of first-generation college students are doing this by themselves.

Kirk: Andrew Moe experienced this himself. He used to be director of admissions at Swarthmore and now works at Matriculate, which links up high-achieving low-income high school students with advisors who can help them get to college. But before that, Moe himself was the first in his own family to go to college, and he says he met with his college counselor maybe four times for the entire time he was in high school.

Andrew Moe: And that’s what our students face, right? And it’s really problematic, especially for low-income students, those with less social capital, like first-generation students, to really understand this and then compare financial aid award letters.

Jon: So what happens to them?

Andrew Moe: There are some students that they take on this debt, or they see these bills and they drop out after a semester or after a year because it just becomes too much.

Kirk: Rachel Fishman says she saw this all the time when she used to volunteer as a financial aid counselor. So when she later started working at the think tank New America, she decided to investigate. Fishman collected more than 11,000 financial aid offers from nearly 1,000 colleges, and she found that they used a 136 different words to describe federal direct unsubsidized student loans.

Jon: Yeah, those are the most common kinds of loans that undergrads take out.

Kirk: Yup. And colleges called them things like ‘direct unsub’ or ‘d-unsub’ or ‘estimated federal unsubsidized.’ In two dozen cases, they didn’t even use the word ‘loan’ at all, making it seem like these offers were scholarships. But these are not scholarships.

Rachel Fishman: And then there were some institutions that were just doing a really, really bad job and making it seem like students were getting a full ride and doing some, like, confusing things with loans to make it seem that way.

Kirk: Seventy percent of colleges grouped all the aid together without specifying what was a grant and what was a loan.

Jon: We met up with Anika Van Eaton from. uAspire to look at a few examples.

Anika Van Eaton: Yeah, well, I actually see a few of the financial aid offers that I brought. So if you were to look at this, it looks like you’re getting a full ride. It looks like everything is covered. But actually the specific offer that I’m looking at includes the full complement of loans that the student would take out and actually $16,000 in a Parent Plus loan. So something that looks like a full ride actually includes about over $20,000 in debt.

Jon: To say this is confusing is an understatement. Yet colleges and universities persist in using these complex forms with wording families don’t understand.

So is it possible that that’s on purpose? That some of these colleges purposely make it harder for a family to realize they have to take out loans, or to hide the total cost?

Andrew Moe: Yeah, 100 percent.

Kirk: That’s Andrew Moe again. His organization helps smart, low-income students translate terms like EFC, which stands for ‘expected family contribution.’ EFC is one of those terms that doesn’t actually mean what it sounds like, since it usually doesn’t include the loans you need to take out. I think most reasonable people, Jon, would assume that a loan is part of the — quote, unquote — expected family contribution. But colleges don’t look at it that way, which can really trip people up.

Andrew Moe: And I had one really challenging example where a student sent me his letter. It had zero EFC — ‘zero estimated family contribution’ — literally written on the letter. And here he had about $40,000 in loans listed on the letter. And he wrote back and he said, ‘I think I just got a full ride.’ And I unfortunately had to tell him no. And it was written to essentially obscure what the actual cost is.

Jon: So a lot of families end up thinking they’ll pay less for college than they actually will. You put down your deposit in the spring, and when the bill comes in the fall, you find out, ‘Hey, I owe a lot more than I expected.’ A report from the Government Accountability Office found that half of all financial aid offers from universities and colleges made the total price seem lower than it actually was, and 40 percent did not include the price at all.

Kirk: So if you’re stressed out by just listening to us, describe all these obstacles that college has put in your way, you are not alone. So are a lot of other people. And in our next episode, we’re going to tell you about an effort to make colleges adopt a single standardized financial aid offer that’s much easier to understand.

Jon: And don’t forget: We’re going to give you some tips to make the process easier and help you get the best deal.

Kirk: This is College Uncovered, from GBH and The Hechinger Report. I’m Kirk Carapezza.

Jon: And I’m Jon Marcus. We’d love to hear from you. Send us an email to gbhnewsconnect@wgbh.org, and tell us what you want to know about how colleges really operate. And if you’re with a college or university, tell us what you think the public should know about higher education.

This episode was produced and written by Kirk Carapezza …

Kirk: … and Jon Marcus, and it was edited by Jeff Keating. Meg Woolhouse is supervising editor. Ellen London is the executive editor.

Mixing and sound design by David Goodman and Gary Mott.

We had production assistants from Diane Adame.

All of our music is by college bands. Our theme song is by Left Roman out of MIT.

Mei He is our project manager and head of GBH podcasts is Devin Maverick Robins.

College Uncovered is a production of GBH News and The Hechinger Report and distributed by PRX. It’s made possible by Lumina Foundation.

Thanks so much for listening.

The post College Uncovered, Season 2, Episode 1 appeared first on The Hechinger Report.